The Transformative Power of Belonging: Insights from Kimberly Inkumsah and Angie Scott

An Episode from the Changing Tomorrow Podcast

In today's rapidly evolving landscape, the dialogue around diversity, equity, and inclusion has never been more urgent. Yet, amid these conversations, one concept often gets overshadowed: the idea of "belonging." It's a term that goes beyond mere representation, diving deep into the emotional and psychological aspects of being part of a community. In a recent podcast episode, Kimberly Inkumsah and Angie Scott shed light on this often-overlooked facet of the DEI conversation.

The Multifaceted Nature of Belonging

"Belonging isn't just about being somewhere; it's about making a meaningful impact."

- Kimberly Inkumsah

This simple yet profound idea encapsulates the multifaceted nature of belonging. It's not merely about physical presence or token representation. It's about contributing your unique perspectives, skills, and experiences to a collective goal. It's about feeling seen, heard, and valued.

Equity as a Pillar of Belonging

Equity is often discussed in isolation, but Angie Scott emphasizes its integral role in fostering a sense of belonging. She notes, "The thing that gives me hope is this new generation that's coming along. They are bold and I love it. They aren't afraid to say what is on their mind. They are not afraid to go after what it is that they want. They are not afraid to hold people accountable. And that is exactly what we need in these times."

The Interplay Between Belonging and Equity

Kimberly adds another layer to the conversation by discussing the role of equity in belonging. "What's given me hope is counteracting the negative out there, that's miseducating, that is really trying to blur the truth of history and really create a culture of instability in people's minds and trusting and building trust." This statement highlights the symbiotic relationship between equity and belonging. One cannot truly belong if the environment is not equitable, and an equitable environment is incomplete without a sense of belonging.

Self-Care: The Unsung Hero

One of the most striking points made during the conversation was the importance of self-care in the journey towards belonging and equity. Angie Scott points out, "They're [the new generation] also doing it in a way where they are practicing self-care. They're not going to kill themselves behind all of this. They're going to do it in a way that is a space of self-care and self-love." This perspective brings a new dimension to the conversation, emphasizing that the fight for equity and belonging should not come at the cost of personal well-being.

The Legacy of Those Who Came Before Us

Both Kimberly and Angie took the time to honor the leaders and activists who have paved the way in the fields of equity and belonging. "There were people and there still are people who have been doing this work for a long time and long before we have been in this space," Angie notes. Recognizing and celebrating these pioneers adds another layer of depth to the ongoing conversation.

Conclusion: The Journey Ahead

The dialogue with Kimberly Inkumsah and Angie Scott was not just enlightening but transformative. It challenged us to look beyond the surface and explore the intricate layers of belonging and equity.

But I think we do still, we still, our generation still has a work to do and a place in all of this, but those, those people behind us that are coming up. I'm going to quote Andre 3000 here. I'm from the South and I got something to say.

It really is speaking to, you have in the past dismissed our voice, but I am going to take hold of the opportunity that I have. And I am going to bust down the door anyways and speak in my truth and speak in who I am authentically and demand what I need and deserve.

- Dr. Angie Scott

Belonging is not a destination but a journey, and it's a journey that we must all undertake collectively. As we navigate these challenging times, let's remember that the fight for equity and belonging is far from over, but with voices like Kimberly and Angie leading the charge, the future looks promising.

So let's roll up our sleeves, get into some good trouble, and work towards creating a world where everyone not only has a seat at the table but feels like they truly belong.

Reading List

Kimberly’s Reading List

• Rest is Resistance: A Manifesto by Tricia Hersey

• Urban Alchemy: Restoring Joy in America's Sorted-Out Cities by Mindy Thompson Fullilove

• Reclaiming Your Community: You Don’t Have to Move Out of Your Neighborhood to Live In a Better One by Marjora Carter

• Women in Green: Voices of Sustainable Design by Lance Housey , Kira Gould

• How to Change the World: Social Entrepreneurs and the Power of New Ideas by David Bornstein

• You're Successful, But Are You OK?: Real Self-Care Strategies to Preserve Your Sanity and Get You Through the Workday by Deya Smith

• Know Your Value: Women, Money, and Getting What You're Worth by Mika Brzezinski

• Boundaries Updated: When to Say Yes, How to Say No To Take Control of Your Life by Henry Cloud and John Townsend

Dr Angie’s Reading List

• How to be an Explorer of the World by Keri Smith

• The Sum of Us : What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Togetherby Heather Mcghee

• The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel A. van der Kolk

• Healing Spaces: The Science of Place and Well-Being by Esther Sternberg

• Rest is Resistance: A Manifesto by Tricia Hersey

The Workbook

To help you apply these concepts in your own life and organization, we've created a workbook that you can download here. This resource is designed to guide you through exercises that will help you understand and foster a sense of belonging within your community or workplace. It offers practical steps and actionable insights to make the concept of belonging a lived experience.

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Podcast Transcript

Gayathri (00:01.106)

Okay, Angie and Kimberly, are you ready for this?

Kimberly Inkumsah (00:04.86)

Ready.

Angie Scott (00:05.629)

Ready?

Gayathri (00:06.906)

Okay, let's do this. We like to start our episodes with a fun question, and it's the same question that's asked to all our guests. And it's one that I think says a lot about a person. So I'm gonna ask you, if you could choose a superpower, what would it be?

Gayathri (00:30.55)

Angie, do you wanna go first? Oh, okay.

Kimberly Inkumsah (00:30.63)

I'm ready to go.

Absolutely. I've been thinking about this for a minute because I'm a Marvel fan and Nick Fury, who was played by Samuel L. Jackson, he had taken a special serum that halted his aging and allowed him to be active despite being a century old. He was a genius level strategist.

coupled with superhuman strength, speed, and agility, in a time where truth is really being blurred, I want to have the ability to stand in my age so that there will be real voices represented to share what history knows, what our present is experiencing, and demand that the future shares the right.

authentic and real record of truth. Truth to power.

Gayathri (01:36.434)

Oh, that's a good one. And I love the Avengers myself. So thanks for bringing Nick Fury. I'll just have you know that exists in Harry Potter as well. And the Philosopher's Stone. So I would highly encourage you to read Harry Potter. You will love the first book. Angie's shaking her head. So Angie.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:52.098)

or...

Gayathri (02:00.043)

It's yutter.

Angie Scott (02:00.111)

I'm sorry to be just like blasphemous to many folks, but I'm just not a Harry Potter fan.

Gayathri (02:08.054)

I'm stuck in a room with two non-Harry Potter fans. This is, it is what it is. Okay.

Angie Scott (02:14.255)

Okay, I would say, I think Kimberly's answer is wonderful. Mine is not as deep. So I'm just gonna preface that. But I would love to, at first I was gonna say flying because you feel it inhibited. And I used to be a gymnast and when I used to flip, I had that feeling of kind of freedom just in the air. Anyways, but I changed my mind.

And I'm going to say, teleportation. Because I just love, I have always loved history. So I'm kind of piggybacking on what Kimberly is saying. I've always loved history. And I've always wanted to, I always imagined, or tried to imagine what it would feel like being in different periods of time. So there was like this TV show where someone actually did that I forgot what it was called.

but they would be able to go back in time. Quantum leap.

Kimberly Inkumsah (03:19.75)

There were so many, there was so many, there's a reason, yes.

Angie Scott (03:20.979)

Yeah, just kidding.

Gayathri (03:22.398)

Isn't that the doctor who? I have not watched it, so I'm the wrong person. Okay.

Angie Scott (03:26.671)

No, I don't think it was Doctor Who, but I think it was called Quantum. Anyways, there were quite a few characters or TV characters that did that. But anyways, I would love to be able to go back in time and just experience what it felt like in different moments, to be able to see people in my ancestry and to really kind of see what they did and how they were. I'm fascinated with...

Gayathri (03:30.464)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (03:56.307)

I'm fascinated with family and culture and seeing like the same likenesses between family members, maybe because I didn't grow up around my family members on a day-to-day basis. So that's always just really intrigued me, but I love history and I would love to be able to kind of go back at different points in time and see what life was like.

Gayathri (04:21.742)

Wow, love it. Do you think you would go to the future, Angie?

Angie Scott (04:26.739)

Hmm, maybe, but I'm more interested in the past.

Gayathri (04:31.79)

Interesting. And I love how both of yours kind of centers on time and the passage of time on different on our people, on your people, on our families, on your families. And it's, and I think it plays such an important role in what we're going to talk about today. And that's something that we've worked on for many years. We've

We've worked on it for two years before we released the equity rating. And I know how strongly you both feel about it and how much experience you both have in bringing this topic to the foreground. So to set the stage for our conversation, we're going to talk about belonging and inclusion today. Inclusion is a powerful force. It can make a person want to come back to a place or make them never want to come back.

It's about creating a space where individuals feel seen, they feel heard, they feel valued. And listeners, Dr. Angie Scott and Kimberly Lewis are the best in their field, given their focus on creating inclusive spaces and inclusive experiences. So we're lucky to be hearing straight from them. So I'm gonna ask you both, can you help us understand what inclusion truly means to you?

and why it's so important in today's world.

Angie Scott (06:01.783)

For me, inclusion means that I am not just in a space because someone allows me to be there. I'm in a space because I am wanted there. And there is a feeling of people wanting to...

really embrace me and other people who may not look like or have different backgrounds or abilities like them to be in a space that celebrates diversity.

Angie Scott (06:43.779)

It's important for this time. We're seeing some really great shifts in our society right now. And some people may even say that it seems like we're going backwards. And so really holding up inclusion and standing strong and what that truly means is vitally important for our society to really move forward. And for us to not.

go backwards in a place where people feel less than, where people feel othered, where people feel like even their very existence may be in danger because of being different than the status quo.

Gayathri (07:33.642)

Thanks Angie Kimberley.

Kimberly Inkumsah (07:36.462)

it's so interesting to be able to really define that what it means. It's almost like starting from what it doesn't mean or the opposite. And

Gayathri (07:46.487)

Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Inkumsah (07:52.898)

As a leader in places where I've often been the only one, when I think about what inclusion means, it's being heard, not silenced.

It's being a part of the whole, not marginalized. It's living out loud and not hidden behind the curtain.

It's being human and recognized for my humanity, not because I'm strong, not because it's been the expectations from our ancestors. It is just showing up who I am and people welcome the ability to hear, to learn, and to push forward.

with the ideas and perspectives that I bring.

Gayathri (08:57.346)

Wow, I think being heard, not silenced, it's such a simple but profound way to put it. I think there is a lot that we can learn, like Angie said, from what we're seeing. We seem to be going backward, and honestly, it just takes us logging in to a news app to see the different evidences or symptoms of that. So it's...

It's a simple thing. It seems you both made it seem like inclusion is such a simple thing, but it seems so hard to do. And I want to ask you, I would love to hear about a personal experience when each of you felt truly included.

Angie Scott (09:50.715)

I'm gonna let you go first, Kimberly.

Kimberly Inkumsah (09:54.114)

I'm going to start from a place of, for so long we fought to be accepted. I need to change myself to fit in. I remember I started out on the Hill, you know, that federal Navy blue suit, you know, the heels, you know, pumps, heels, you know, be listening and that whole Capitol Hill experience to...

to what did it mean to be a black woman in corporate America, what it meant to be a black woman servicing a civil rights icon who was running out of time age-wise and felt like there was a sense of an urgency to pass the knowledge on to the next generation to now in a space where, after looking back all these years, um,

The urgency is here and my mentor, Diane Dillon-Ridgely, said, breathe, Kimberly. It's been hundreds and hundreds of years of us working and fighting up. Breathe. You've got a whole lineage of folks that are turning to this moment in time and wanting to understand what you've learned from the work that has happened in the past.

But when I really felt like I didn't have to live up to any of those constructs or any of those moments and times is when I made my own table.

Kimberly Inkumsah (11:38.778)

What I learned about being a black woman is we took what the world and what life and what our creator gave us, and we maximized it and amplified it because we had to. And so having seen my grandmother, who was left with 10 children, seven black boys in Jim Crow South.

not only kept her farm while working others, but got all of those children to a better life educated, starting at Howard University. One came, then they paid for the next one to come, worked to get the next one up. What I learned is instead of trying to focus on theirs, how about making my own? And I remember feeling like

There were so many women in the sustainability and climate change world who were leading, who were getting it done every day. But as a person that built the largest conference and expo, Green Build International Conference and Expo, I never saw those women step up on main stage, step up.

when their firms were bringing that one thought leader to deliver their message. It was always we were behind the curtains. It was the work husband that got to deliver the message. And I decided, you know what ladies, enough is enough. Let's create our own table. And I launched the Women in Green Power Breakfast and Lunch that really

charged our senior leaders to be a bridge builder to the next generation. Make it easier for them. Don't just mentor, but sponsor. Let's pull our collective resources together to really define the challenges for our next generation young women at this convening. And

Kimberly Inkumsah (13:53.158)

The energy shifted. I showed up, thought I'd bring my speakers there. The room was packed out with people on the wall trying to get in. We couldn't even get the speakers to practice. It just, there were so many women waiting for this time where we could leverage our own power to really create an agenda. That's when the power shifted, not waiting for others.

Because as my mentor says, it's been hundreds of years of trying to get the system to wake up. What are we doing? There's power when two or three get together, but don't let it be two or three women. Pass the baton, Angie.

Angie Scott (14:37.237)

For me, there's a couple of examples. The most recent is when I was at Neocon in June speaking on an all Black woman panel with a Black man moderator, and we were talking about our experiences being Black professionals, Black people in the interior design profession.

Angie Scott (15:03.719)

a space that was, that felt very safe. We felt like we could say how we felt without feeling like we were going to need to appease anyone else or walk on eggshells to ensure that someone feels comfortable. I think all four of us have gotten up to a point in our career where we have really embraced who we are living in our truth.

and speaking truth to power. And I do believe that having that space and talking about experiences and talking about what Kimberly is saying, creating our own spaces, and owning who we are and our capabilities in this profession was magical. There was a packed room of.

of people of all different colors. But it really res- we could tell in the space that it really resonated. And there were many other Black women who came and talked with us and just people in general who came and talked with us afterwards and really expressed their thankfulness for us being there, for feeling seen and heard through our stories, what we were saying.

that this was actually something carved out in Neocon, which is the largest trade show in the United States. So it was a space that we really felt a sense of belonging and inclusion. Another place, fairly recent, I'm getting ready to send my son off to school, so that's been on my mind.

to talk to everybody about it, because that's what I've been thinking about lately. Thank you. And one of the schools he had, was considering was an HBCU, Florida A&M. And so we went down there to visit for their open house. And I went to an HBCU my freshman year in college and there's just nothing like that feeling because you are in a place.

Gayathri (17:00.756)

Congratulations.

Angie Scott (17:27.643)

in a space and around people who have the same, many of them have similar lived experiences as you in this country. The systems are built by other people of color and specifically black people in that space. And so it takes away the kind of looking over your shoulder all the time or questioning motives.

There can be a whole set of other issues, and I'm not negating that, but just taking that away and feeling like you're in a space where people are truly celebrating and unapologetically celebrating our culture while being in a space of leadership and academia and just a place of support.

Angie Scott (18:28.207)

was, is amazing. And so I just really appreciated being in that space with my family and then being exposed to that as well. So that's the other place that I have felt included.

Gayathri (18:42.392)

Angie, I have follow up questions for both of you, but before then, Angie, could you share with our listeners what HBCUs are with our non-American listeners?

Angie Scott (18:53.287)

Yes, absolutely. HBCU is an acronym for Historically Black Colleges and Universities. It came about in unfortunate circumstances. There was a time in the United States where Black people were not allowed to learn, period. It was against the law for Black people to be educated. And this came out of slavery.

as a way to keep a people from advancing, from gaining knowledge, from having free thought. That didn't happen. We continue to have that free thought, but this was a way of control. And so, historically black colleges came about because when we were allowed to be educated, segregation had moved in.

Well, segregation was always there, but segregation really was in place to ensure that black people were not able to be in the same institutions as white people in this country. And so we had to have our own schools. We had to have our own banks. We had to have our own stores. We had, you know, so we had to basically build our own separate society because we weren't allowed to take part in the larger society.

So HBCUs came out of that need to educate black people in this country at a higher level, at a university college level. And so there are many HBCUs located in the South. That is where the majority of those laws had taken hold. And so...

We still have them today. It is not exclusively for black people. There are other people. Anyone can attend an HBCU, but that is the history of these universities and colleges.

Gayathri (20:57.666)

Thanks, Angie. That is a very important history lesson that is relevant to everybody listening and important to know. There are a bunch of books, listeners, that Kimberly and Angie have recommended that I'll add below in the show notes. But the history of HBCUs is one that is often, I think, not remembered.

But coming back to the topic at hand, Angie and Kimberly, something that struck me when you were speaking was that the first time both of you felt included in your careers was when you had reached a level, so a higher level, where you were either invited to a table or you could create a table for yourself. So Kimberly, you created that in a powerful way through Women in Green. Angie, you were invited to speak.

honestly on a panel at NEOCON. And it speaks to the urgency of the matter because it means that there are tons of people who are younger, who are beginning in their careers that are probably not feeling included and don't know where the tables are, keeping up with the table metaphors. I really want to kind of ask you, inclusion and belonging are often...

said in the same sentence, in the same breath. They said to go hand in hand. I want to ask you, how are those two concepts connected? And we'll go into detail on how you think we can create spaces that people feel that they belong in, that they're included in. But first, let's dive into the difference between belonging and inclusion.

Angie Scott (22:52.179)

In the simplest of terms, you can be in a space of inclusion, but not have a feeling of belonging. The same isn't true. So if you feel a sense of belonging, then inclusion has happened. So belonging is an outcome of inclusion, if that makes sense. That's a very just plain straightforward, simplest way I can explain it.

but really feeling like you are not only able to now be at the table. So let's use the example for going back to universities, right? So now we've been included in being able to go to any institution in the United States, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I feel like I have a sense of belonging there. There may not be other people who look like me.

or who have my similar background there that may create a sense of community or belonging for me. There may not be the same set of rules for me versus another group that is able to be there. I may not be able to speak my voice without being penalized. That's inclusion, but not the belonging. And just being able to truly be your authentic.

true self and having that be embraced without ridicule in a space is also an example of belonging.

Kimberly Inkumsah (24:29.822)

to share some experiences of myself when I talk about being the 0.005 percent, as I said, a black woman in the building industry, green building industry, sustainability world, and a woman of faith. So that's when I think about all the ways in which I really identify.

it's in those spaces. When I think about being included versus belonging.

I built the largest conference and trade show, Green Build International Conference and Expo, global 15 fields of the clean energy sector, products and services, every president.

every big entertainment experience and brand present there, award winning. And yet, when I would step into the next city where we would bring $50 million worth of economic value to a city for just three days, every time I sat I would

I let me take a step back, maybe not every time, but I can chart the cities where we would be in the lobby and I would be waiting. And the local city officials would think my intern was me.

Kimberly Inkumsah (26:08.066)

A woman, but never the Black woman, talking about the intersectional experience. The people that worked for me were a good 15 years younger than me.

the older seasoned executive could never be it if it was a black woman. And so, of course, when they would ring my phone and I would hold it up and they would recognize that they actually have been sitting in the lobby staring at me for 10 minutes thinking, oh, it couldn't be this person I'm waiting for when in fact it was me. It's so interesting how a title that comes across on an email.

people's perspectives of who that might be look different when you come face to face. And as a minister, I've never been a person that would

confront the moment because I'm a bridge builder. And I always start from where people are and take that as my ministry to take them to where we need to be. And many of those folks are seasoned friends of mine in the industry today. But when you talk about inclusion and then belonging, that journey is extensive. And I remember being,

with leaders in a city, one of our southern cities. And it was all good when we were in the corporate atmosphere. But when I wanted to go into the city and recognize and see my people and get into, you know, community and understand their experience, I remember not being able to get a cab back to my hotel because no one would pick me up.

Kimberly Inkumsah (28:03.342)

We don't deliver or offer support and resources for that part of town.

Surely someone from that corporate background wouldn't be caught dead in that part of town. And really for me, it is how, when I think about cities and places and their responsibility, how you make that connection and really own up to everyone.

and make that a part of the story and the experience, that is always a red flag for me anyway. For where I wanna be, where I wanna bring my buying power and who's really authentic to celebrating people, place and culture as opposed to a report on a website. We got lots of those, don't we?

Gayathri (28:58.678)

We got way too many of those. Kimberly, just if you could just share with our listeners, what year was this?

Kimberly Inkumsah (29:08.034)

It's so interesting. It was, I'll share, it was when we were 2005, I'll never forget.

Kimberly Inkumsah (29:17.358)

We were looking at, actually it was a little bit later than that, I'd say about 2009. We were looking at New Orleans and I was there with one of my corporate industry partners, Marriott International, they were doing a service day and they brought all of their top clients and shout out to Marriott.

They had us working for days. And I wanted to step away and go visit Lower Ninth Ward to really understand if we're talking about resilient communities. And me, myself, in the Green Building place, we have been looking at solutions and playbooks.

for how to rebuild community in a healthy and resilient and sustainable way and got down to the lower ninth ward and no one would pick me back up. Calling, calling, finally my colleague, Anissa, wherever you are in the world, she got me.

And then from then on, when I would go down there, we would make plans that I would always have a ride to get back. Now this was before Uber, but I'm sure it might be an interesting experience for them, but it just taught me a lesson. We're there for service, we're there to give back, but yet once you cross a certain line.

Gayathri (30:41.331)

Wow.

Kimberly Inkumsah (30:52.154)

that whole perspective changes. And it was no longer the allyship of my brand behind me that makes people put on that face of inclusion. I was just another person from that side of the war.

Gayathri (31:09.486)

Wow, and 2009 is 14 years ago. It's not that long ago. And it was, and it's a stark, real reminder to just a simple experience. You're there to do your job as the head of the conference of the, as the boss.

Kimberly Inkumsah (31:33.75)

and events. Communicate.

Gayathri (31:37.93)

And you're sitting there and if you've never met Kimberley, Kimberley is one of the most fabulous people I've met. She's got, she's just sitting there and then having to watch the person who is there to meet her calling out her intern as Kimberley. That is unacceptable.

Angie Scott (32:01.198)

Okay.

Kimberly Inkumsah (32:01.234)

Talking about my superpower though, I wanna live to tell the story, like having the ability to reframe what's been framed with context that shares as Angie, I'm used to calling you Dr. Scott, but as you've often said, when you live from it from our perspective, there's a whole nother layer.

whole nother layer. It's almost like a Rubik's Cube of experience that shares the paradigm shift that is occurring.

Angie Scott (32:35.516)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (32:39.707)

Yeah. And I wanted to touch on that too, just as kind of bringing it back to the built environment, cause that's something that I, I'm a, by, by trade, uh, I'm an interior designer, so I've always had, I've, I've always been affected by space. I've always, um, felt like space has always impacted me. I've always felt the energy of space. Excuse me.

and how it can impact you mentally, physically, et cetera. And so I've always been hyper aware when I come into a space, how that makes me feel. And there are many spaces that I have walked into where I immediately do not feel welcome. And it has nothing to do with the people in there, but it's the way that the space is designed. And so that's what I set out.

doing my dissertation and my research on how we can create spaces that make people feel connected to them, make them feel a sense of belonging. And I think that goes to what Kimberly is saying, when you have people who are engaged in those practices, in those professions, who come from diverse backgrounds.

and can bring those different layerings of perspectives to the work that they do, because I don't care what kind of work that you do, who you are is always going to seep into that work. But if we are in professions where we have the same type of people represented with very similar experiences who hold a specific world view,

Angie Scott (34:36.211)

There isn't room to create those different feelings in space, those different connections to the environment. And I think it's vitally important that we have that representation in our professions, in the build professions, in architecture, in interior design, the numbers are extremely low for designers and architects in the United States, 2%, 1% black people.

in these professions. Imagine how space, I just imagine how space would feel if we had different experiences and backgrounds represented more in these professions and how space can transform and impact people around the world. I think that's a really interesting concept. It should be the norm, but it's not.

And I know the interior design community and architecture community are really trying to make a change in bringing more diversity to their profession. And I do applaud them for doing that, but for far too long that has not been the case.

Gayathri (35:52.882)

Anji, we've spoken about who, sorry, we're having some technical issues. Okay, can we try now? Test, okay, all good. Anji, we've spoken about, you know, who has the pen, writes the history, I'm botching it up. But it's interesting that you're saying who makes the place defines who feels belong, who feels like they belong in the space.

Angie Scott (35:53.684)

I don't think we should. We need to focus on the conversation. I think we should focus on the conversation.

Gayathri (36:23.318)

The having a diverse range of people or a diverse team that creates a place that creates an experience. Firstly, can do no harm. Secondly, it can exponentially enhance the experience of people from different backgrounds. And listeners, Angie is a powerhouse in the interior design field, and she's done her thesis. She's also among her.

many different talents. She also has a doctorate degree. She's done her thesis on culture and space and it's really amazing the things that she talks about and the things that she is working on. And in addition to all that, she is a professor also. So this topic of inclusive spaces is one that is not new.

but one that Angie has really brought to the forefront as it pertains to culture and background. So highly recommend looking up her work and I'll link to some of Angie's work in the show notes as well. So I want to flip the script a little bit.

Gayathri (37:41.054)

What is a commonly held belief that you disagree with?

Kimberly Inkumsah (37:54.242)

take it.

Gayathri (37:55.167)

Yeah.

Kimberly Inkumsah (37:58.914)

representation matters. I've said it over and over, I myself have been quoted, but as I alluded to earlier how we contextualize this and it's extremely nuanced and I consider representation, it does matter, but not as a figurehead. I, it needs when someone commits

fully commit. And if we're going to be extremely intentional, it should be in the C-suite, it should be all throughout middle management, it should be at entry level.

It should be on your board. It should be with your investors. It should be throughout the DNA of your organization. What, Dr. Scott, what we did was really help people to understand how important it is that you need someone represented reporting up to the C-suite with a budget, but not just that. Resourced throughout.

resource throughout because often we find leaders feeling like they're the only one their figure had, their face, their moment to be held up in a Twitter.

feed or a quote from an article. But if folks are going to really feel like this is real and authentic, then they don't need to just be at the table. They don't need another, but they need several throughout to feel like there won't be repercussions.

Kimberly Inkumsah (40:08.942)

It's an experience that is supported and it is understood and we don't have to keep level setting and educating people on what is a vision and a mission for the organization or it's constantly having to share this is our goal. No, we see it, we experience it. You don't have to say it, we experience it, but throughout. And so where I come from.

through the years, I was always the only one.

And I remember some of the leading environmental and social justice leaders saying, no, Kimberly, you can't move on. You're all we have there. You're all that we have. If you leave, we won't be heard. We won't be represented. You can't wait till someone gets at the end of their tenure to think about building the bench.

Kimberly Inkumsah (41:11.386)

What is learned, what is understood. I gleaned for so many years from some of my heroes, Diane Dillon Ridgely, George Bandy, Van Jones, Major Carter, Colton Brown, so many leaders that have been in the trenches throughout the building industry and beyond to bridge the gaps. And what is most important is, who am I sharing this with?

who's there that can literally continue and not have to re-experience that which they did, that which I did, but do a quantum leap forward. And so when I think about this next iteration of belonging,

It is to make sure that it's holistic, it's throughout, it's authentic, and people are experiencing the journey real time so that whatever is the gap for this new season in time and life, they can represent it well based upon our journey and our lessons learned.

Gayathri (42:24.098)

Kimberly, actions speak louder than words is what I'm taking away. And the numbers are speaking for themselves. I think the numbers are 80% of people quit their jobs because of their managers. And a substantial number of diverse, chief diversity officer or heads of diversity have been impacted by the layoffs recently. So the numbers are sobering.

And to your point, it's not just the figurehead. Yes, sure, you have a chief diversity officer, great. But what are you doing to support the managers, support the people who are in contact, who are able to live those values and show those values and add to the experience that employees have? What is being done there? And yes, okay.

you may be able to write Chief Diversity Officer in your report, in your yearly report and on your website and maybe at a court. But the true numbers are often seen with the retention. They're often seen with the experience that employees have. And I'm going to shout out our project here, Angie and Kimberly. The well equity rating, one of the main things that we looked at was how that...

experience can be included, can be checked in on regularly. What does accountability look like? And what does accountability look like? So it's progress for everyone and that companies are not losing great talent that comes into their rooms and makes their projects better. And at the same time, you know, they have what they need to make their reports and things like that.

Kimberly Inkumsah (44:20.942)

I want to have a moment here because I want to share what I heard during my listening and learning tour. Are our systems and structures created to support inclusion and belonging? That's what we were trying to really address. Are we consistently trying to line up to a structure, institutions that weren't built for that?

We heard often we think vertically when so much of this side around humanity should be thought about vertically. Our climate goals can only happen if our health goals, our social goals, our governance, our very economic and financial structures are thinking how we can work together. Not say I'm good, pass, you figure it out.

And so when I think about our systems and structures, what is it, Dr. Risa LaVizzo-Moray said when she was brought to the White House to really define when we would achieve a culture of health equity and pre-COVID, she said a generation post-COVID, she's now thinking two generations. But the CEOs at the table were thinking in terms of quarterly returns, quarterly.

Gayathri (45:40.391)

Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Inkumsah (45:43.422)

We heard over and over again, how do you quantify empathy? It's not something that you can measure in a couple of years. I hired a couple of, you know, marching the last folks. Like, what are we experiencing? If you are committed, it is in the values of the system and institution you've created. You continue to work.

Angie Scott (46:04.819)

Cool.

Kimberly Inkumsah (46:10.734)

You continue to build, you continue. Dr. Scott, you always talk about it. Continue to listen and survey your community.

Angie Scott (46:10.92)

Yeah.

Angie Scott (46:20.923)

Yeah, you're really hitting on what I was going to say, Kimberly, is that, um, I think an unheard belief is that people feel like they can just do these couple of things to check out boxes and we're all good. Um, it really takes for an organization to do what Kimberly just said, but then also be educated around what those issues truly are.

I don't think with something as complex and nuanced as this, that you can go into trying to solve for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging or whatever acronyms you want to use just by taking performative actions.

You have to understand what those complexities and nuances are. You have to understand why they exist, where they stem from, why people feel the way that they do in order for anything that you put in place to sustain. Because the time when you need to do some cuts, as we are seeing, you just talked about people being laid off in this space now.

They're the first ones to go because there is no value. There is little value, I should say. True value placed on the necessity. And I think that this topic is a necessity that should be included throughout the fabric of an organizational culture. If it is not, it will be very unlikely to succeed. And so being educated on

the expanse of what this topic is and how it has impacted people and how systems have been purposefully designed. And it would be extremely hard to break away from these systems because of that is imperative for people to understand the journeys that they are about to embark on when they are actually trying to put forth meaningful diversity, equity and inclusion strategies in their organization.

Gayathri (48:44.394)

It is not a report, it's a journey. And I think that is the key. It's not results that you see quarter over quarter, but it's results that you see in terms of engagement of your people, retention, et cetera. Can I ask you, Angie, what are metrics? Empathy cannot be quantified, and rather should not be quantified. What are metrics that organizations can track?

or should be looking at when they're trying, when they're coming in with good intentions, when they're trying to make a difference, when they're trying to include it in the DNA and the fabric of the organization, they've got the policies in place, they've got the chief diversity officer, they have got the training, what metrics can they track to, I'm gonna use a strong word, ensure accountability.

Angie Scott (49:43.119)

One of them you hit on already, retention. If someone feels a sense of belonging, if they feel included in a place, if they're happy in their workplace, they will stay. They are, there are statistics, there are studies out there that talk about how people who do feel included in spaces and in workplaces, and that there's more diversity there.

there is greater retention and loyalty to that company. People coming up nowadays, the Gen Z generation are quick to leave a job if they do not feel that sense of belonging and inclusion. They're quick to leave a job if an organization is inauthentic and what they say that they are going to do.

And so going back to metrics, I think one of the things that, so we can measure retention. We can also measure things like how many people are actually being hired in an organization. So those are some, you know, easy things that we can look at. But retention, then you can hire people. But if they don't stay, there's an issue. So that is a better metric. Yes. I think one of the things that people

Gayathri (51:02.518)

Like 10 year old.

Angie Scott (51:08.799)

don't really understand is when you're talking about diversity and equity inclusion, when you're talking about people who have been the most marginalized and the most underrepresented is that they want the same things everyone else does, right? They want to be in a place where they feel welcome. They want to be in a place where they're able to make a decent living, to earn fair wages.

to not earn less than someone else who has the same qualifications as they want to or more. They want to be in a place where they have good healthcare for themselves and their families. They want these basic necessities of life just like anyone else. And so that's why I always have connected DEI

Gayathri (51:43.207)

or more.

Angie Scott (52:06.131)

was calling cultural well-being, culture to well-being. So we need to get past looking just at, do you have good policy on your hiring practices and your wages, which is excellent. You should. That's baseline. But also, are you providing?

quality food to your and access to food to your employees, why you are creating this diverse place, right? At all levels, yes, at all levels, part-time included. Are you providing quality healthcare to this diverse population?

Gayathri (52:46.963)

at all levels.

Gayathri (52:53.215)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (53:03.443)

So you can start to measure, which I think is what sets the well equity rating apart from other ratings or tools that are out there or certifications that are out there, is because we're really looking at people in their fullness, right? We are really talking about access to the social determinants of health. We're looking to make sure that not only does the white male...

CEO executive have access to the farmer's market that comes in on a Thursday afternoon and is in this wonderful space that has all of this great indoor air quality and indoor environmental quality and luxury chairs and a beautiful space and spaces filled with nature. But like you said, does the

person who is in a wheelchair have access to those same spaces? Does a person who is LGBTQ feel free to be who they are in those same spaces? Does a person who is black, brown, indigenous feel like they can come into these spaces and feel that same sense of access, that same sense of feeling like they belong in this space?

That's what we need to look at these. When we're talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, it's not just this kind of.

I think abstract kind of, you know, intangible thing. Yes, we're ambiguous. We're talking about people, just people who want to live a good life, you know? And so when I'm speaking about that wellbeing piece, I'm also talking about going above and beyond, right? So the same things that the CEO has access to.

Gayathri (54:43.574)

or intangible and ambiguous, yeah, ambiguous rather, yeah.

Angie Scott (55:07.879)

should be the same thing that the janitor has access to. And we know that people who are in those positions usually are people who are the most marginalized because of the societal inequities, the systemic issues that we have related to different cultures, races, religions, and backgrounds.

Gayathri (55:31.942)

Angie, those are very actionable things that I think organizations can start doing. Something else I learned from you was centering on commonalities. And you started with you. You start touching upon the topic with their humans. But there are other pieces that. Organizations can look at to bring people together.

in terms of interests, in terms of what they do at home, do they have kids, etc. So, can you give a few actions or a few examples of how that could work?

Angie Scott (56:20.175)

Um, well, an example that comes to mind is affinity groups. Right. So, um, people just want to know that they have a community. They want to know that they have their people around, whoever that is, whatever that looks like. Right. So people who share common experiences, who have lived similar lives that they can connect to and know that, um, there's even kind of an unspoken.

Gayathri (56:37.063)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (56:49.839)

language between you and this community that makes you feel a sense of belonging. You know, where I can go with a group of mothers and we all know the experiences as a collective. Everybody has different experiences, of course, in all different backgrounds. But as a collective, when I say a mother,

Gayathri (56:51.859)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (57:15.595)

and I'm speaking about my experience as a heterosexual mother, excuse me, I know that other people who live in that same existence understand what I'm talking about. Or if I am talking about a Latino person who has a difference of culture.

And they are around other Latino people who share that same, some of those same commonalities and culture. They don't have to expand, going back to what Kimberly said earlier, we don't have to expend this energy in explaining what we have been through and what we are going through. There is just this commonality, this known way of being.

and known experience, collective experience that we've had. And it gets exhausting when you have to constantly explain who you are in every place that you go. It is exhausting.

Gayathri (58:29.938)

I'm nodding my head vigorously. Personal experience, one of the first times in my career when I felt like I belonged in a team immediately without explaining and going through those steps was when I was working with Angie and Kimberly on the well equity rating. It was the first time in my career that I was working with two women of color.

there are gender disparities in the building industries. There are also racial disparities. And it was truly the first time that, you know, I went into a room with Angie and Kimberly and felt like I could put my, you know, take my mask off. And talking about affinity groups, you know, when you look at us on paper, we're quite different. We're different age groups.

We have different racial backgrounds. We grew up in different places. But the fact, what brought us together, I think, is the fact that we all had to explain how we got there in almost every single room that we went to. And when we came into a room together, it didn't occur to us to ask each other how they got there. It was just like, okay, cool. Yeah, we're here, let's do the work. So.

there is something to be said about affinity groups and the power of affinity groups and how it is such an easy-ish solve putting a little bit of effort, putting intention into integrating diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging into the fabric of a company's DNA.

Gayathri (01:00:21.538)

So Angie and Kimberly, you've had illustrious careers, both of you, and you're still on your path, career path, career journey. Can I ask you to share your personal journeys in promoting inclusion, kind of how this, how you reached here, how are we talking about it, kind of your journey to this point? And...

What advice would you give to your younger selves?

Angie Scott (01:00:55.103)

Go ahead, Kimberly. I've been talking a lot.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:00:58.738)

Okay, so, no you haven't. It's been such a blessing, but I've, my journey has been wide. I started out working on the Hill and for the governor of Florida, Florida.

is experiencing different times now. But when I was working for the governor of Florida, Lawton Childs, he was a man of faith and a man that was known as walk in Lawton because he walked the entire state from community to community to hear from the people. To hear from the people he had already spent.

good, what is it, 20, 30 years were as a senator on the Hill and was disenfranchised with the journey and stepped away and then stepped forward to be a governor. But first he wanted to hear from the people and I came into my first job.

after working with Close Up Foundation to his office. And first thing he asked me was, Kimberly, what city of Florida are you from? There was no accent, I'm from Baltimore city. And I recall being like, oh no, it's all over. And he said, Glenn Denny's office is on the fifth floor, but we'll let you stay a little while. But I do.

want to say that began a journey of who were the advocates for me, just Kimberly. You would have thought it would have been the women at the table, but all of my greatest advocates have been the men. That created a space, brought me from behind the curtain.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:03:10.422)

His point was Greenville is 15 football fields.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:03:18.65)

We've had every president, you close out the conference, not me. And I remember freaking out. Are you kidding me? I'm going out there to the main stage. He was like, absolutely. Hear my talking points. Get out there. And that became a journey that reconstituted the playbook for that conference. Even now.

the female leader that runs this wraps it up. And they don't even own the show anymore. But it took someone to say that, I know some of you out there don't know, but let me tell you who actually has taken this journey with me. And so I think people lose hope in the current constructs, in the hearts of people.

And I want to say and challenge us that hope is still alive. Every moment in my career where I might say I'm done, this corporate white people, the majority.

They don't care. They don't love. But yet the Lord had every single time there was a moment of oppression, he would bring someone forward to share. No humanity. Don't count us out. And so if I would tell my younger self something it is always stay true to who you are.

When you bring your best you, that is what changes the environment around. When I bring Kimberly, the bridge builder, the person that cares, that tries to see beyond, you know, what the current limitations offer, it changes the energy and the atmosphere in the room. It challenges the hearts of those that would want to stay stuck. And sometimes when I was younger, I was not proud of that person.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:05:32.918)

I kept trying to fit in with those around. And it was Rick Fadriese that said, no, I don't need Kimberly with the suit on going to testify to the UN Foundation. I need Kimberly and all of her cultural gloriousness. I need you to go back and bring Kimberly back, which meant I had to change clothes, come on a later train ride, because I allowed.

My very lovely conservative mother to say you're going to testify before the UN. You need to be, you need to be, you know, buttoned up. You need to be, no, I need to stand in.

The weapons that you fought with were good for your generation, but I got to stand in what I've been given. And so even as my journey has continued, when I show up at my most powerful is when I show up as Kimberly with her voice that God is purposed within me. My perspective matters, and I change the room. You change the room when you show up.

and what I do vow for our young women and across even just beyond. When I see someone passionate and excited, I want to be their greatest ally. One by one, we can commit to support the new voices and the new thinkers. Come strong. Come with your hard work.

We're not insecure. We want you to do a quantum leap because the work is yet to be done.

Angie Scott (01:07:21.835)

Okay, I have no idea how I'm supposed to follow that. Kimberly, drop the mic moment.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:07:33.026)

not at all. This is what we talked about. This is why we, this is why meetings would go on for hours when we would be talking because so much of it was look how we felt. We felt what there's hope and you extracted all of that. Let me throw it over to you and you made it real from the research. That's the evidence is how do we translate the empathy, the stories, the lived experience and make it real.

Angie Scott (01:07:33.035)

But I'm still trying to think.

Angie Scott (01:07:44.915)

I know, I know.

Angie Scott (01:08:03.975)

Okay, thanks for the toss, handoff. My journey started as a curious kid, right? Like I was the kid with the Sesame Street book that came in the mail. I remember with Scholastic Book Orders when we were little kids.

I had this little Sesame Street book and it was all about like going out in nature and finding like things in nature. And I love to be in nature. Actually when I started working on my graduate degrees, I was going to specialize in nature and what became to be called biophilic design. Anyways, I had that book as probably a seven year old child going around my neighborhood by myself.

trying to find moss and the cracks and finding different leaves. And just always curious, always asking why, why is this world like this? Why is the green grass? Like I was very, very curious. I always asked questions. I never understood why there was unfairness. I always was

Gayathri (01:09:16.877)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (01:09:27.947)

curious about how people even came to be, like going back to that history and winning the quantum leap kind of stuff. I was curious about language, how did words become words and what was their origin? I am curious about different cultures and how people live and how they celebrate their different traditions and just the beauty and all of that. And so,

As I continued to grow, I do always remember being just attuned to the environment. But as I got older and had to kind of decide what I wanted to go to college for, I decided that I wanted to go into interior design. I always transformed my room, moved things around. My parents were updating their house when I was probably in middle school and I wanted to

I asked my mom if I could renew the den. So I always kind of had that kind of in me too. And so I decided that I wanted to be an interior designer when I went to college. So I went to college and I remember one of the first exercises they had me do at the University of Minnesota, shout out to the University of Minnesota School of Design. One of the first exercises they had me do, us do, was to say why we wanted to be an interior designer. And

I didn't remember this until years later. I was cleaning out some stuff and I found this car that I wrote on it. And it was a picture of me. And I said, I, um, I am interested in how the space affects us psychologically, how space affects us psychologically. Freshmen in college that was back in 1993. Um, and people weren't talking about that stuff back then.

you know, with interior design. They weren't talking about that. My university did touch on that though. And so I was able to, you know, learn more about the built environment and how it impacted people. And looking at it from that perspective. But I'd also always been in tune with who I was. I come from a family of educators and advocacy.

Angie Scott (01:11:53.167)

social work. My dad was very active in local politics and helping people with their campaigns and I just remember being a part of that. He actually was one of the people who organized the moral hall sitting at the University of Minnesota demanding

specific rights for people of color there. And so.

I guess all of those things came together in who, in shape to who I was. Um, I went on to graduate from the university of Minnesota in interior design. I was always very strong in my, in my concept conceptual work. Um, again, that curiosity, understanding why people do the things they do so that they can inform the design decisions that I made, um,

And I went on to practice and I practiced at a local design firm in Minnesota, in Minneapolis, went on to work at Target Corporation in their design department. And I began to become, I began to feel like I really wasn't living in my purpose. I really wasn't doing anything that was purposeful.

I wanted to do something that mattered. And I remember talking to my dad and telling him that. And he was like, Angie, for you being who you are in the very profession that you are in makes all the difference. You are doing something by being who you are in your profession. And I was like, yeah, but you know, I'm in my 20s. Yeah, but I don't.

Angie Scott (01:13:49.939)

But I still remember those words to this day and they rank true because we talk about that representation, right, in a profession that was predominantly white women and men. So at Tiger Corporation, I was asked to be on a project where we were redesigning the Martin Luther King Center here. I'm in Georgia now, but in Atlanta.

Gayathri (01:13:56.652)

Yeah.

Angie Scott (01:14:16.587)

And at the time that was like one of my heroes, Martin Luther King, and just all that he'd stood for and what he had done for this country. And it was very honored to work on that project. And it came back to me, this is what I wanted to do. These are the kind of projects that I wanted to work on. I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to make a difference for my community. I wanted to make a difference in our society, period.

And so I actually left interior design after that project, after I left Target, went into marketing, worked for a nonprofit organization, very long story. I'll hurry it up. Went into a nonprofit organization, doing marketing for an African-American literature nonprofit, missed interior design, started my own business.

and then had kids and they were really my inspiration for really going back to school because I started really thinking about sustainability. I wanted my kids to not be impacted by the toxicity that are in the materials and in the different products out there and at the time sustainability was just now kind of coming along. But my kids were the ones that really shifted things in my mind and I used to look at them and wonder how

newborns could sit and look at light. And again, this kind of curiosity, why, why? Why did they know to look at light? Because I thought from my own self, like, I am always drawn to light. I'm drawn to the sun. A lot of people are drawn to the sun and light. And that's what got me into really think about what is it about nature that people are drawn to? Why do people feel a sense of

joy and well-being, being around natural environments. And so that spurred me into going into graduate school and really looking at access to nature as a public health issue in design. And so I was going to go get my master's of public health. I talked to my, and combined the two, and I talked to my past professor at the University of Minnesota just to get her

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:16:21.361)

Mmm.

Angie Scott (01:16:38.143)

her advice, and she said that they were creating a new program, a new evidence-based design program at the University of Minnesota, why don't you come there? And I was like, okay, I'll apply. I did that. I was able to create my own program, and I focused after being in a couple of classes, started to focus on nature, but then started focusing on well-being because there are many aspects of space that can impact people's lives. And so...

Gayathri (01:16:56.526)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (01:17:02.311)

went on to do research around that, talked about culture and space and that intersection between the two. After I left, graduated, I wanted to actually become a design researcher and I was doing that research. I love research, again, the curiosity life throughout my whole life. And got an academic position. So I figured I could teach these concepts, but then I could also do the research at the same time.

So that's where I was at a university here in Georgia for six years before coming to IWBI, where I now was able to in academia combine the built environment, social issues, bio-philic design, culture, teaching students, these concepts before people were really doing that on the scale that they're trying to do it now. And then moving into IWBI where I can make an impact.

Gayathri (01:17:47.045)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (01:18:01.423)

on people's lives at a larger scale, bring in that public health lens that I always wanted to connect in my work. And so that's what brought me here today.

Gayathri (01:18:18.046)

Wow, that is such an amazing journey with so many different facets. And I feel like we could spend hours talking about each and every single one of it. I just want to dig in. But I wanted to ask you, what advice would you give your younger self?

Angie Scott (01:18:37.755)

Everything, I believe everything is connected. And for a long time, you heard the long, you know, roundabout journey that I went. But ultimately, and I always wondered, like Angie, you're doing all these different things. How do they connect? And I think what Kimberly was saying, as long as you are authentic to yourself, and that's one thing that I have always done, I have always followed my heart. I have always followed who I was at the core and went that direction. I didn't really care what other people were doing.

Gayathri (01:18:44.398)

Mm-hmm.

Angie Scott (01:19:08.503)

Um, and I think if you do that, all of these things that, you know, I thought were random actually came together because it is what my purpose is supposed to be. It is what I was put here. I know on this earth to do. And so I would tell my younger self, just follow, follow what you hear in your heart, in yourself.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:19:35.406)

And you can get paid to do it. Everyone's like, that sounds good. Cool.

Angie Scott (01:19:37.518)

and you will get paid to do it.

Gayathri (01:19:39.127)

And you should get paid to do it.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:19:42.17)

No, that's one of my books. No, you're right. No.

Gayathri (01:19:50.344)

I think there are amazing lessons here. You belong at the table. Just you being there at the table is making a difference. And you can only connect the dots looking back. You can't do so looking forward. What you can do is follow your heart and be authentic to yourself, I think.

Powerful, powerful lessons here.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:20:17.894)

That is so important. I remember someone saying to me that transformation happens when you start from the future and figure out what you need to be doing today to get you there as opposed to living in just change, which starts from your past forward. Let's keep transforming. I love it.

Gayathri (01:20:36.438)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, talking about the future, we've been talking for over an hour now, and I want to ask you both, what is giving you hope for the future? What is giving you hope today?

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:20:59.086)

What's given me hope is counteracting the negative out.

the narrative that's out there, that's miseducating, that is really trying to blur the truth of history and really create a culture of instability in people's minds and trusting and building trust. And so I love to really

remind folks that there are always new voices out there to counteract all of that. And when I think about Tricia Hersey, where she talks about rest is resilience, a manifesto, it's one of my books. And it counteracts the perspective, you know, the strong, this is how I take it, the strong black woman.

constantly working overtime and beyond to prove you belong there. And it's like, you know what? Enough of that. We're human. We're all human. And when I think about my friend, Dia Smith, that wrote her current book, You're Successful, But Are You OK? I want to remind us when Dr. Scott talks about well-being.

centering yourself and your own personal health and well-being always changes how you show up every single day. And so those books that are out there, you know, pushing up against the status quo.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:22:44.722)

pushing up against how we as women, as women of color, were defined and the expectations of how we need to show up even more to just be like everyone else. I love the narrative that people feel emboldened to empower our next generation leaders and not just them, us, ladies, us today, us seasoned ladies.

we still have a journey to take, but do it in a very healthy way.

Angie Scott (01:23:19.764)

Mm-hmm. That's key. It's healthy way. We had a really good conversation around this last time and it made me really think. But I'm not going to go into that because that's a whole other conversations. But so what I'm going to say is because it really is around like when is an when

Gayathri (01:23:34.56)

For next time, listeners.

Angie Scott (01:23:46.151)

when are you basically going to take care of yourself? And I think that's something that we really do need to think about. But the thing that gives me hope is this new generation that's coming along.

Angie Scott (01:24:03.135)

They are bold and I love it. I love it. They aren't afraid to say what is on their mind. They are not afraid to go after what it is that they want. They are not afraid to hold people accountable. And that is exactly what we need in these times. So I am, there are times where I can feel hopeless.

Angie Scott (01:24:34.007)

But I think we do still, we still, our generation still has a work to do and a place in all of this, but those, those people behind us that are coming up. I'm going to quote Andre 3000 here. I'm from the South and I got something to say. That's, that's how I can just wrap them up.

Um, and for those who don't understand that reference, it really is speaking to, um, you have, you have in the past dismissed our voice, but I am going to take hold of the opportunity that I have. And I am going to bust down the door anyways and speak in my truth and speak in who I am authentically and demand what I need and deserve.

Gayathri (01:25:32.494)

Wow, as Kimberly would say, boom. I think what you said about the generations coming after us is inspiring to break down those doors because they are asking the right questions. They are doing what is true for their heart. Their tolerance level is a lot lower, which means that they are asking for a lot more, which is essential and which...

we need to create the environment for them to do in a safe place. But yeah.

Angie Scott (01:26:08.602)

Can I add to that too? Just really quickly, they're also doing it in a way where they are practicing self-care.

Gayathri (01:26:16.438)

Yeah.

Angie Scott (01:26:18.443)

They're not going to kill themselves behind all of this. They're going to do it in a way that is a space of self care and self love.

Gayathri (01:26:21.035)

Yeah.

Gayathri (01:26:32.354)

Well, thank you, Kimberly and Angie. If our listeners want to find you, how can they find you?

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:26:40.026)

me up on Instagram, KLVLewis, by the way. I am a newlywed and I am Kimberly and Kumsah. But Kimberly Lewis and Kumsah, look me up at KLVLewis. You can look me up on LinkedIn, Kimberly Lewis and Kumsah. And I'm evolving, but currently I'm at Twitter or X or whatever the new brand is.

Gayathri (01:27:05.47)

Are you not in threads yet? Come on over to threads.

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:27:09.142)

I'm moving over, you can go find Kay Lewis Green Girl over there soon. Looking forward to connecting.

Angie Scott (01:27:18.231)

You can find me on LinkedIn, Angelita Scott, A-N-G-E-L-I-T-A. And my Instagram is angyscottdesign.

Gayathri (01:27:32.466)

Anything else Angie and Kimberly you want to share with our listeners before we wrap up?

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:27:38.894)

the premise that

Kimberly Inkumsah (01:27:43.35)

I don't want our leaders from the past to ever go uncommumerated or just present. And I always love to end with, let's get into some good trouble. And we know who that is. If you don't know, look up the quote, good trouble, and you'll find out who challenged as they transitioned.

Angie Scott (01:28:11.995)

I'm going to end just on celebrating again, like Kimberly said, the people that have come before specifically in the space that I'm in. So I think we are talking a lot about DEI and the built environment and culture in the built environment. And there are some people who are kind of out in the forefront now doing that, but there are, there were people and there still are people who have been doing this work for a long time and long before we have been in this space. And so those are the people that I have.

always look to in conducting my research and just trying to find anything that they have put out there. So people like Jack Travis, there are people like Kea Witherspoon, who has been out there doing this work for a very, very long time and she has her own...

business company in DC based in DC. I mean, there's many others, but I do want to like Kimberly says, make sure that those people are recognized who have come and who are still here and that their voices are lifted up and heard.

Gayathri (01:29:24.59)

Well, folks, this is Dr. Angie Scott and Kimberly Lewis in Kumsar. Thank you so much for your time and let's all get into some good trouble. Let's wrap it up.