Designing for People and Planet: A Masterclass on Lighting with Nancy Clanton
In a world where sustainability, mental well-being, and social equity are essential, few topics are as immediate yet overlooked as the impact of light. Nancy Clanton, a luminary in the field of lighting design, recently offered insights that could reshape the way we think about both. Through discussions on various platforms, she brought light—quite literally—to matters that stretch from the walls of our offices to the expanses of the night sky.
Daylight: Nature’s Lightbulb
Daylight holds unparalleled benefits for human health and sustainability. Nancy emphasized the importance of designing workspaces in our projects and workspaces that prioritize daylight over artificial light sources. This doesn't just align with the wellness trend but also with the urgent need for sustainable practices. With benefits ranging from enhanced productivity to reduced energy bills, daylight proves its weight in gold—or perhaps, its weight in sunshine.
Light Pollution: The Unseen Crisis
While on the subject of light, let’s dim the bulbs to focus on a crisis in the shadows: light pollution. According to Nancy, the glow we cast in our urban sprawls has consequences that ripple through ecosystems, affecting everything from pollinators to human health. This alarm isn't just environmental; it's human. Light pollution is linked to disruptions in circadian rhythms, affecting sleep quality, and even increasing the risk of cancer.
The Overlooked Metrics: What You Can't Measure in Lux
So how much light do we really need? Nancy turns conventional wisdom on its head by challenging the high lux standards frequently used in public and private spaces. It turns out, humans don't require as much light as we've been led to believe. A mere 0.2 lux could be adequate for lighting a path, countering the prevailing 10-lux standard. It’s a wake-up call to reevaluate our energy use, casting both financial and ecological burdens under a new light.
Mind Wandering and Forest Bathing: A New Lens on Design
But light isn't just about visibility; it's also about how it shapes our interaction with spaces. Nancy introduces the concept of "mind wandering," a psychological state that can foster creativity and alleviate stress. Coupled with the notion of “forest bathing” and the importance of views, these principles become the cornerstones for designing spaces that promote mental well-being. The bottom line is that we need more biomimicry, more views of dynamism and nature, and a serious reconsideration of how light impacts us, body and soul.
Final Thoughts
Whether it’s rethinking the lux in our lamps or considering the view from our windows, the time is ripe to consider how light and space play roles in our well-being and the health of the planet. As discussions around social responsibility and sustainable living continue to gain traction, pioneering voices of experts like Nancy Clanton are not just illuminating; they’re indispensable.
Reading List
Podcast Transcript
Gayathri (00:02.47)
Hi Nancy, are you ready?
Nancy Clanton (00:04.198)
I am definitely ready for you guys, right?
Gayathri (00:07.541)
Okay, let's jump right in. So the question that we ask all our guests when we start the podcast is a fun one. If you could choose a superpower, what would it be?
Nancy Clanton (00:21.618)
I've got so many superpowers. Okay, I'll have to tell you a couple of them and then we can decide which one. My first superpower is that I could get everyone to be treated equally and beautifully. That there's no difference in anyone. We're all the same. But then with that, we could solve
Gayathri (00:26.361)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Gayathri (00:45.645)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (00:52.086)
Rolthunger, homelessness, anxiety, and number one superpower, no more war. We're done with it.
Gayathri (00:54.861)
Right.
Gayathri (01:04.358)
Yeah, yeah, we were done with it a long time ago, but it's yeah, but I love your approach to the superpower being treating everyone equally and equitably and it's something that I have seen working with you, the way you approach your projects, the way you approach your work and you're an icon in the field of lighting.
Gayathri (01:35.167)
I don't think there are many people out there who don't know about your amazing work in the world of lighting and daylighting and your activism in terms for light at night. So I want to start there. I want to start with daylighting. But Nancy, what does lighting mean to you in terms of living and working in nature and kind of starting with...
our original light source, the sun.
Nancy Clanton (02:04.238)
beautiful. Yeah, it's only been a couple hundred years that we haven't only lived in sunlight. You know, when Edison invented the light bulb, you know, we're going, oh, we can light our own places. And I just feel that we have taken advantage of that. We need to bring back sunlight as the number one lighting source.
We need it as people. We need views as people. If you look at old architecture, before the lighted, electric lighting environment, views and day lighting were part of the architecture. And to go back then and Frank Lloyd Wright, and oh my gosh, that's where I feel we should go back and not be so dependent on.
let's put in all these down lights in this room and even illumination and all of that daylight is first and that provides the best environment for everyone and everyone should have access to daylight and views that's what I feel about lighting daylight first and then just kind of fill it with electric lighting
Gayathri (03:28.373)
Yeah. I've heard you talk a lot about views and how views are important to our psychological health, our physical health, and really helps also with the circadian rhythm because it helps people look outside. You've done some really cool work around views and the approach to flora and fauna through windows. Could you talk a little bit about what you think about how...
offices nowadays are designed, about how they're designed and what we can do differently.
Nancy Clanton (04:01.846)
Well, I feel unfortunately that the construction costs on building a building kind of takes precedent over the health and well-being of people inside. And where you go, oh, a big boxy building, that is kind of the most economic way of doing it. But then when you're inside the building, where are you gonna work? Are you next to the window?
or you on the interior space, I do feel, and I believe it deeply, that everyone should have access to views. It's kind of, it's definitely prominent in Europe, where they do have regulations, where everyone needs to be at least so many meters away from a window. In fact, some of the best European standards,
17037 actually goes through on what your angle of the view should be from where you're sitting, but also what the view is from the outside of the window to the view, whether it's the horizontal layer, the vertical layer, or the sky layer. And I just go, if architecture did that,
and interior design to make sure everybody had that quality of view. It would lower anxiety. It would increase our beautiful mind wandering, which is what we need for innovation and creativity. And it's to take care of people, that's what we need to do. Put views first and design architecture around that.
Gayathri (06:01.029)
I think you said something very important, that everyone should have access to views. And one thing that's so beautiful about EN17037 is that they consider everybody in the building. And everybody has got different approaches to views and everybody wants different kinds of views. And there's something really cool that you do which is engaging with the people in a space.
before you design and even after your design, after everything's been done, they're taking, everyone's settled in, you also check in at that point. Do you think you can talk a little bit about kind of your approach to that?
Nancy Clanton (06:30.888)
you
Nancy Clanton (06:43.198)
Absolutely. I mean, I just feel that so much of our design work, that we work, you know, on schematic design and design development, construction documents, and blah, and some middles, and then we're done with the project. Oh, we may commission it, and then we're finished, and we walk away. We really don't know of who is occupying that building.
What if different tenants show up? What if the interior design is different than what we thought? Were we designing for empty spaces? Oh yeah, we know it's an office space, but were we designing for this complexity of cubicles or whatever? And so what we have done is we'll go back to buildings one to two years after they're been designed or remodeled.
and canned the occupants subject evaluations and asking questions like
you know, on a scale of one to five and what you feel in your access to daylight. Your access to daylight control too, which means you have blinds you can operate. And by the way, I love up down blinds so you can move the blind up or down depending on where the sun is. I've got it in my office right now and I use it. I'm constantly adjusting it.
Nancy Clanton (08:20.36)
from these people and access to views is one of the questions. Where we get really poor responses are people who are in windowless offices, windowless criterias, or they're cubicle they just can't see out over to the window.
And really, when I go and interview them, I maybe many times I'll go and pick out a few of the responses.
that people are extremely unhappy, and I'll go and spend some time with them and find out. And they'll say, oh, if only I could have her office, that would be great. And I'm going so much of our architecture, Gayathri, is based on putting the executives around the windows.
and everyone who's not at that position interior. So it's a real equity issue to me. I think everyone should have access to windows and quality views. So therefore, it's not who you are, it's what you do.
I mean, ask the realtors on this. You think you're going to get higher price for an office that's on the 23rd floor versus ground level? So this is extremely important to everyone.
Gayathri (09:50.513)
Nancy, the satisfaction that a person has is very much correlated to their distance from the window or their access to views. Even if a certain side of the building has better views than the others, people perceive it differently in the sense they rate one as higher than the other or not.
likely the person who's listening right now is wondering, okay, I get some bad responses. I go and ask the people in my space, what can I do to fix it super quickly? Do you have any ideas of some easy-ish ways to address this issue? You already touched upon the executives on the outside of the, on the, in the corner offices near the windows, but are there any other kind of criteria or factors that people can take into account?
Nancy Clanton (10:43.246)
Absolutely, we've done this in our office in Boulder where we've allowed people to move anywhere they want and Even their desks will move, you know, they're in wheels and they go up and down and you can rotate them So nothing is normal. It is what people want or
we kind of float around the office. There may be sometimes you want a quiet spot and kind of a little room.
Or you may want open with a lot of people and you know you can see people and you can go hey I need your help over here. But I think that's the importance allow people to pick their own spot, working spot. I mean just think of it if you go to a library
where do you select your study area? You look at places where you do it already and you get to select, or when we were all at home during the pandemic, when I asked university students, how did they pick their working spot?
Gayathri (11:37.037)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (11:57.118)
Number one was acoustics, you know, if you have your crying kids. Number two was access to views in daylight. And so you just go, but if we could move that into our commercial spaces, that'd be awesome to be able to do that. Give people the choice to move around.
Gayathri (00:01.126)
So Nancy, that's a good approach for commercial spaces where people spend their time during the day. Things look different when you come home or in spaces that you spend time in at night, especially when there's light outside, artificial or electric light outside. What are your thoughts about light at night?
Nancy Clanton (00:20.962)
you
Nancy Clanton (00:25.634)
First, in your homes, I feel that people should have the option to warm the light and to subdue it and come up with a warmth similar to firelight or candlelight. It really helps, you know, start your melatonin production. It doesn't suppress anything. And then also allow people
to sleep in darkness. Now, if you live in a downtown area or places with a lot of activity outside, you may not have that option to sleep in darkness or to be in darkness. And I've heard so many people, I've looked at communities and looked at their light trespass issues and see all this light blasting a house.
Every single shade is pulled and people complain about those awful bright lights outside my window. What I would love is that we could actually respect each other and not have any light go into someone else's property. And it's not necessarily the amount of light, it's seeing the light. So it is that glare, it is that brightness.
that is really obtrusive to people. And again, the color of the light outside in our environment is really affects the flora, the fauna. My good friend, Naomi Miller has says, you know, the critters don't have blinds. They can't close their blinds. Like we can.
Gayathri (02:14.15)
That's right.
Nancy Clanton (02:19.442)
And they're subjected to this and up lights in a tree that are on all night. You know, the photo period of them are messed up and the birds and the moths and the pollinators. Gayathri you know, we've lost so many pollinators since the 1950s. We're down to less than 5% of our pollinators and from the traps and everything that they've been collecting this data.
Gayathri (02:24.39)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (02:50.07)
The moths get caught in the lights and they circle around and they're not going out pollinating or reproducing. And then the bats come and everyone eats them. It's really, it's critical. We've got some issues in what we have to really be careful with. So light at night. Yes, it's great to see the stars. It's wonderful.
Gayathri (03:01.903)
Bye.
Nancy Clanton (03:17.878)
But there's ecological impacts. And there's also impacts on people. That we have to be aware of.
Gayathri (03:27.37)
And just so we're on the same page, Nancy, you're not saying there shouldn't be any light at night.
Nancy Clanton (03:34.038)
No, that's not what I'm saying. But if you look at lighting at night, and there's a new IES document out there, RP43, which I was chair of the committee for the outdoor lighting of public spaces, where we talk about wayfinding and just edge lighting and lighting.
hazard things like stairs to make sure that you have shadow definition. It's how you light it. And we've done a lot of surveys in college campuses and cities and brought people through and national parks where we can light to two moon lights as long as people are adapted to it. And we emphasize the shadowing on the hazards and provide wayfinding.
It's more than enough light for everybody. So it's exciting to do this. Have it that your destination is well-lighted, just really soft facade lighting, and you have a path and wayfinding for highest reassurance.
Gayathri (04:35.61)
It is.
Gayathri (04:49.042)
One of the things that I learned from you, Nancy, is how little light we actually need. I remember we were at a conference in Seattle where we went out and you took measurements of the light on the ground in the downtown area. And it was just amazing. It blew my mind because we, you know, it was so little light, but we could see so well. So I think we really, as a collective, we really underestimate or rather overestimate how much light we actually need to see.
and the negative impact of that light on us and on our environment. So, when you say two moon lights of light, how much lux are you saying?
Nancy Clanton (05:34.535)
How much lux? I would say 0.2 lux. Really low.
Gayathri (05:42.132)
and what is the standard, not the standard perceived, but what is the number that is usually used for 10? So it's quite a difference and it's amazing what the human eye can perceive. And like you said, you know, we...
Nancy Clanton (05:49.546)
10 Lux.
Gayathri (05:59.898)
grew up with the sun, we evolved, grew up is the wrong word, we evolved with the sun, we evolved using the moon at night. So our body is primed to use that amount of light. It's just that we've never tried it in a way or we don't, we overestimate how much light we need.
Nancy Clanton (06:18.898)
And yes, and you're absolutely right. And what happens is that as we overlight things, we become adapted to that higher light level, which means we can't see easily in the lower light level, especially with older eyes, that it takes not...
seconds it takes minutes to really readapt, you know, readapt to lower light levels. I mean just imagine going into movie theater from the bright sunlight and you go, oh wow, it's hard to see this. If we're adapted to the lower light level...
we can see amazingly well. And again, it's using shadows, not having even lighting. Sometimes lighting that is uneven a little bit, aids in seeing silhouette and objects in the road or on the sidewalk.
So it's how we light, we can do it delicately. It's kind of like painting a scene outside, very delicately. And with the adaptation, I'm sure a lot of your listeners have gone hiking at night under moonlight or gone skiing. And you can go like.
Gayathri (07:40.634)
I've just gone for a walk. Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (07:42.346)
Yeah, or if we're walking in the snow, of course, one or two moonlights, it's like, it's so bright outside. And that's what we do, you know?
Gayathri (07:49.274)
Beautiful. Yeah. The other day it was blue moon. Yeah, it was so bright. It's gorgeous. And it also allows you to see things that you would never have noticed, I feel, with electric light or up lights or lights that are just glaring down on you.
Nancy Clanton (08:10.922)
Yeah, so one of my dreams, Gayathri, is that EPA in the United States actually defines light pollution as real pollution. Wouldn't that be awesome?
Gayathri (08:24.374)
Oh, they haven't yet? Oh my gosh, yes, that would be awesome. I'm surprised that it's not on there.
Nancy Clanton (08:31.634)
It's not because it's not air pollution. It's, but the harm that light is doing to the night. And there's several movements towards that to get EPA to declare light pollution as real pollution. Once that happens, oh wow, we can really change our outdoor environments a lot.
Gayathri (08:34.291)
Oh my gosh.
Gayathri (08:39.428)
Yeah.
Gayathri (08:43.972)
Yeah.
Gayathri (08:53.604)
Yeah.
Gayathri (08:57.626)
And there's a huge correlation, right, with the amount of light at night and of course the circadian rhythm but also the impact on human health as well as the impact on the environment and that's what, when we talk about pollution, that's what we're looking at. So the science is definitely there. The studies have been done across thousands of places. I recently saw a study that said that...
that kind of overlaid the map of light at night across the map of the US and overlaid the amount of breast cancer incidence over that. And somehow it was like very similar or it aligned with where there was more light, which was very interesting to me. It could have, of course, we have to take into account that it could be because of the amount of population in each of those areas.
but there is also a very clear correlation between the amount of light at night and your sleep and the impact of that on cancer.
Nancy Clanton (10:01.95)
Absolutely, no, you are spot on. And I think that correlation is extremely important to say light and reduction in melatonin production, suppression, we can't sleep as well. And of course, I think one of the biggest things is so many people with their screens at night.
and using their earphones or your computers or your televisions right before you go to sleep with that high blue content is really damaging. You know we all need to wind down, actually read a book. Listen to soft music, pages, yeah. Listen to soft music, wind down, be exposed to light.
Gayathri (10:48.972)
A book with pages, not a Kindle.
Nancy Clanton (10:59.53)
that has very little blue content in it. Again, more like, well, look at the sun. The sun during the day, blue, blue. It's wonderful. We need it. The bottom part of our retina, that's what we bring in the sunlight. And at night, in order to activate our melatonin,
the sun goes down and sets and it's this beautiful red and orange it comes through and it actually hits the top part of the retina. And that's what activates it. Like fire light from below. And we're going, like you said, let's go back to nature. Let's go back to what we evolved with.
Gayathri (11:41.083)
Thank you.
Nancy Clanton (11:48.818)
And that's what we need to do in our lighting design, and to emphasize what nature is already telling us.
Gayathri (11:59.206)
talking about nature, you're a big proponent of renewable energy and how to integrate that into our daily use of different aspects of how we use energy etc. And I know that you're doing some really cool stuff around there, so would you be open to sharing that?
Nancy Clanton (12:21.59)
Yes, I'd love to. I've been very fortunate to be invited by the University of Alaska Fairbanks to visit some two coastal communities in Alaska. The first one is Cordova, Alaska. They are the fishing village that was almost destroyed by the oil spill, the Valdives oil spill.
and they are at the Delta of the Copper River, which is some of the best salmon in the world. And when I visited there, just hearing the passion, hearing the issues on how can we go 100% renewable.
where we've got great hydro in the summertime, and it's all renewable, and it's fabulous, and working with the Alaska Natives, the EX, and ponding and getting the water way up in the high area, and then having it come down and generate. But in the wintertime, the river freezes.
Gayathri (13:35.878)
Hmm.
Nancy Clanton (13:36.306)
and they have to switch to diesel energy generation, which causes pollution. But mostly, the cost of the diesel has gone up six-fold in the last year. They can't afford it anymore. So going up there and looking at what they're facing, and Kate Copeland, who is the Cordova Electric Co-op Head,
Gayathri (13:49.246)
Wow.
Gayathri (14:03.511)
Okay.
Nancy Clanton (14:03.87)
just has pleaded out to our team to go help. Can we try different renewable generations? We're open. Is it tidal? Is it wind turbines? Is it more photovoltaics? Is it producing green hydrogen in the summer with the excess hydro power?
Could it be biofuels, you know, from the Alaska natives, clearing paths for the moose after the old growth timber was taken away? And it's like cooperative, what can we do? And they have offered to be a living lab for any technology. So it's one of the most exciting places to work.
And they also back to lighting, they wanna reduce their energy loads so badly. And so we've been working on replacing their city lighting, the community lighting, but not just one for one is kind of like, hmm, these are kind of blue lights. What if we did lighting that was biologically sensitive to the salmon?
Gayathri (15:18.339)
Let's swap it out.
Nancy Clanton (15:26.21)
to the birds, to everything. And in October, we're going to go up there and do a demonstration in being able to adjust spectrum, distribution, level, and bring the community through with surveys and get their input of what do you think. So it's really exciting. Both the renewable and the new lighting.
Gayathri (15:47.878)
Wow.
Gayathri (15:52.55)
that, yeah, that's super cool. And it's the perfect example of a community who needs to live in harmony with the nature because you said they were a fishing village, no? So I would assume that the salmon has a particular kind of requirement with the lighting because of the amount of light that gets into the water. So it's the perfect example of how
they use the right word, a community can be used as a lab and we can learn from them to create renewable energy sources but also create lighting that's good for the people and the planet.
Nancy Clanton (16:34.318)
Absolutely, and even thinking because they do have a fish processing plant there, even capturing the methane, because carbon's a problem with global warming, methane's even worse. How can we reuse that methane for a generation, or because they're a food desert, to create greenhouses and take the methane and let the plants just soak it up?
and completely regenerative processes. So nothing is gone up into the atmosphere that's going to harm it. It's exciting. It's just a whole new living lab that I feel very honored to be working on.
Gayathri (17:16.74)
It's-
Gayathri (17:24.074)
I'm excited to hear more about it in October when you're going for the evaluations and the test run, so to say.
Nancy Clanton (17:36.042)
Yes, it will. We'll just stay tuned. We may have to do another broadcast.
Gayathri (17:41.298)
Yes, absolutely Nancy, always. I'm always down to talk to you. So I wanted to ask you, you know, we spoke a lot about light, we spoke about a lot about talking to the people and also you touched upon how important it is to find a solution that fits in with the space or the place that you're in and the people. There is no one size fits all. What is a commonly held belief that you disagree with?
You've already said some revolutionary things, so I'm curious to hear what you say next.
Nancy Clanton (18:16.63)
Common belief I disagree with is that daylight and windows, oh, they're bad for a building because there's too much heat loss and the HVAC has to be oversized and the window to wall ratio needs to be low and all of that. And I'm going, wait a minute, what are you looking at? We can get better window systems.
we can get windows that aren't going to give off heat or take it in. And what if we design windows first for the people and put their anxiety, their productivity into the economic model? And there's been so much research on this.
And I'd like to refer everyone to Lisa Heschang's visual delight book, which she goes into depth about the research on increased test scores with school children and productivity with call center workers and also with healthier patients in hospitals. We need to put that into our economic model and not just all.
Windows are bad. So I feel that kind of overrules what people need to lower our anxiety. And so that's the commonly held belief that I like to disagree with, that we need to minimize windows for the people.
Gayathri (20:02.45)
And I'll link Lisa Hishong's research in the show notes. I think everybody should have a look at it. Her work is just amazing. Nancy, you brought up a word that I haven't seen used as much for light, which is the word anxiety. And you're relating what...
based on what I'm understanding is that you're relating anxiety and a person's level of anxiety with the access to daylight and windows that they have. Do you think you could talk a little bit about that? Because that's a really powerful aspect that should be put into economic models, but also can help companies design spaces that are more healthy for their people.
Nancy Clanton (20:47.658)
Yes, and the research, the best research I've seen on anxiety has been done by Wanhee Ho out of UC Berkeley, where she actually, they put on brain scans and they could see the activity on the frontal part of the brain when you're doing a problem, you know, like a math problem. Add this number and that number together. And then when you're done.
Gayathri (20:57.28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (21:17.33)
it went to the back part of the brain and it was more active. If you were looking outside, and she calls it mind wandering, and the importance of mind wandering, because you have less anxiety.
bigger creativity, more innovation, and they were able to track people in spaces where, and her figure is 47% of your time should be mind wandering. It's not daydreaming. It's one of the most important things you can do for your mind. How do you do it? I mean, I'm doing it here while I'm talking to you. I'm looking out at the window and...
Gayathri (22:06.926)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (22:09.234)
And Kevin Van Den Wynne-Mellenburg at University of Oregon did it on dynamism, on how movement outside, whether it's the trees, I see wind in the leaves and birds and everything come through. Because if we look at our interior lives, the one thing we have in our interior spaces are straight lines. There are no...
Gayathri (22:11.215)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (22:37.306)
straight lines in nature. And the processing, we have to go to process the grids and the straight walls and seams and everything, could be totally overwhelming without this biomimicry of looking at low spatial frequency. And again, that distance of the view is extremely important.
Gayathri (23:04.782)
the distance of the view. What, what, are you talking about window to the view or person to the window? Okay.
Nancy Clanton (23:11.938)
Wind, yes, but all of the above. In fact, I know a lot of buildings are suggesting to put an interior, you know, screens with windows and everything. That's a big mistake. We need that three dimensionality outside. And again, EN17037 says the distance from the window to the different layers is extremely important.
Gayathri (23:22.615)
Great, daydream.
Nancy Clanton (23:41.886)
And the sky layer is the most important. I mean, I'm constantly watching clouds and going, oh, look at that, looks like a puppy dog, you know, kissing a flower or whatever. And you're mind wandering, but you're processing things that is one, he how said, is one of the most important things to reduce our anxiety.
Gayathri (23:50.69)
Yeah, absolutely.
Gayathri (24:05.474)
I'll link Wonhee Ho and Kevin Van Der Weylenberg's research below, but there I think what he said about looking outside and seeing the dynamic.
changing the dynamism is something we can't replicate as much indoors even if we have you know wood grain or biphelic elements it's because a lot of it is the unpredictability of it it's about how it helps our brain kind of focus on that while there's processing going on in the background if i understand you correctly.
Nancy Clanton (24:39.69)
Yes, I agree. Now, not to say that plants indoors and everything isn't important, but it is more in my mind and through the research of Kevin and Juan, he, it is more important to see the movement of nature. And there's big things about going through and go forest bathing. In fact, National Public Radio just had a
Gayathri (24:44.167)
Oh no. Yeah.
Gayathri (25:04.708)
Yes.
Nancy Clanton (25:08.494)
great broadcast on forests, bathing, walking through and what it does for your mind and the importance of being outside every day and having that experience. And it's just, I love it. I mean, I walked through the forest here too, you know, the aspen trees and seeing the animals and the squirrels and everybody jump around and it just, it creates a calmness in me.
Gayathri (25:10.239)
Oh.
Nancy Clanton (25:38.946)
that I'm ready to then go back and concentrate on whatever research I'm doing or design. It's relaxing. And I think what, again, back to equity, I would hope everyone has that opportunity. Because the one thing that does happen when you don't get those views, myopia.
increases especially in children and the huge epidemic of myopia in Asian countries and also in Indigenous peoples with that and it's something we have to really as our generation we go come on let's get our act together.
Gayathri (26:21.446)
Mm-hmm.
Gayathri (26:32.975)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (26:33.086)
Let's do it. Let's change architecture. Let's change the way we do things to really help everyone. Equity for all.
Gayathri (26:37.695)
Yeah.
Gayathri (26:42.798)
Yeah, and I think there are three elements that you said. The first is views and the dynamism out of windows really helps with processing. The second is biophilia is wonderful and absolutely necessary, but it's not a replacement for windows. And the third is, you know, you can always, you have to be more intentional about your exposure to daylight and to nature, which is how...
forest bathing kind of came to be, you can kind of find it if it's not in your space. In fact, you need to find it because it helps so much with mental health and how you process things.
Nancy Clanton (27:21.09)
Yes, yes, yes. Spot on, Gayathri, you got it.
Gayathri (27:27.89)
Well, Nancy, I want to talk a little bit about you now. We spoke about lighting, we spoke about daylight and electric light and forest bathing and all wonderful things. But I wanted to learn a little bit about your career journey and kind of how did you become this icon that you are in the lighting industry? Tell us everything.
Nancy Clanton (27:48.738)
Well, okay, well, I have to go back to sixth grade when my class, my grade school class was part of a university experiment where the university researchers said, we think if we change the way classrooms are run, that the students will learn more.
Gayathri (28:04.487)
Okay.
Nancy Clanton (28:15.61)
And they may go to college level in at least one subject. So they met with their parents and said, can we experiment with this sixth grade class? All the parents are sure, go ahead, you know, we believe you. So what they did was that four professors came to our school and they taught us each individually, one on one.
and we had what we call contracts. And so we were like, how many contracts can you complete? And you go back to the professor and tell them, well, there were four of us in our sixth grade class who just got so involved in math. And we were taught all the way calculus, trigonometry, geometry, into calculus in sixth grade. In fact, and there were three girls and one boy, and
Gayathri (28:48.598)
Okay, okay.
Gayathri (29:06.153)
sixth grade.
Nancy Clanton (29:15.546)
our professor actually taught us how to build a computer. My parents didn't even know what the name computer was, but it's binary code. We're going, oh, this is so cool. You can do this. I don't know. So it just got my interest in math and I loved it. Now being put back into the normal system, we're going, oh, we have to go back to arithmetic?
And luckily, the professor came down and taught us after school and continued our journey. So when I got to high school, I realized calculus, you can think of the impossible. You can divide by infinity and still have something. So I was like, I want to do something with my math. And I was like, well, do you want to go and just be an accountant or something? I said,
Gayathri (29:48.408)
Oh.
Nancy Clanton (30:13.11)
no and he said well would you like to go into engineering and I go what's that so he gave me a book on engineering and I fell in love with it I go you can create you can do things and it's math oriented so I went to the University of Colorado I was accepted into the School of Engineering one of two girls in the class this is way back in the early 70s and
Gayathri (30:33.715)
Mm-hmm. Wow.
Nancy Clanton (30:40.75)
We didn't even have girl bathrooms in the school, which the dean's secretary took care of. She said, she put a big cardboard sign over the girls and said, you know, boys restroom said, this is girls, get rid of the urinals. They don't have to run over to the business school in between classes. I was just like, and I thought, well, maybe girls aren't supposed to be engineers. You know, you just kind of.
Gayathri (30:43.047)
Wow!
Gayathri (30:49.902)
Dean's secretary.
Gayathri (31:08.843)
Yeah, kind of, yeah.
Nancy Clanton (31:11.234)
But I was so influenced by one of my professors, Dr. Ron Helms, where he taught lighting in architectural engineering. And we took theater lighting classes. We volunteered for the theater. We took just sessions on what an architecture and environmental design and his openness to, I really want
to teach you the experience of lighting and how the eye works. We took a whole semester of the eye and our brain activity. Very unusual for our school of engineering. But then I graduated and I loved it. And then my first job was like, oh, back to being the only female and that's with 50 engineers. I couldn't eat lunch with them.
Gayathri (31:52.382)
Yeah.
Gayathri (32:07.258)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (32:07.946)
had to eat it with the typing pool. And of course, mandatory, girls had to wear dresses to the work.
Gayathri (32:10.778)
I don't know.
Gayathri (32:14.232)
Oh.
That was like in the employee handbook that I mean you're told wow
Nancy Clanton (32:19.796)
No.
And, um, Gayathri, I did go down manholes, okay? So my boss said, you're the first one down and the last one up, a manhole. But to me, I just went, well, maybe this is normal. I'm the unusual one. And no one could believe, no one accepted me for who I was. But I stuck to it and I grew.
Gayathri (32:31.622)
because you're wearing a skirt. Wow.
Gayathri (32:41.514)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nancy Clanton (32:52.07)
And now just seeing of the expansion of gender diversity in this art. And yeah, in our company, we have mostly female engineers now. Just and just seeing that the young girls in engineering that I want to mentor them and say, we can do it. We can do it. And I love the mixture. I love the different of
Gayathri (33:17.103)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (33:21.482)
male and female, of mixing the way our minds work on problems, everything. It's like the way the world should be. No discrimination, everybody is equitable, and I have just grown my career and times when you realize that you're put in the right place at the right time. And I remember
meeting Amory Lovins, who is Chief Scientist of Rocky Mountain Institute and founder. He reviewed one of my lighting designs once because I decided to do indirect lighting in this health facility, mental health facility. And he went, oh, Nancy, indirect lighting, you're wasting all this energy because you know, the foot candle level, blah, blah. I go, Amory, why are you using a different metric than foot candles? I'm using...
equivalent sphere illumination. Nerdy scientist, he goes, what's up? I give him the formulas, he's calculating, he goes, you're right. Indirect lighting is more efficient. And to this day, he introduces me, oh, this is Nancy Clanton, and she's the one who taught me equivalent sphere.
Gayathri (34:39.705)
I'm sorry.
Nancy Clanton (34:43.618)
But that led to greening of the White House because Amory was a Rhodes Scholar with Bill Clinton and led to the Empire State Building and national park work and the Pentagon. Do you take one little experience and you just, you don't ignore it? And you go, what if, what if?
Gayathri (35:05.915)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (35:09.63)
And that's where, and I'm a firm believer, things don't happen by coincidence.
Gayathri (35:15.722)
And things don't happen by coincidence, and there's a certain level of grit that we can't ignore. Because it must have taken, I can't even begin to imagine, a tremendous amount of grit to be the first one down a manhole and the last one up. So yes to everything that you said, Nancy, but just the sheer tenacity is amazing. It's inspiring.
Yeah, and my next question was going to be if you had to give a piece of advice, or if you could give a piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be?
Nancy Clanton (35:55.207)
It would be.
to be open. Don't be afraid.
value what you have to give and just keep asking what if. What if? What if we did this? And to also network with everybody no matter who you meet whether it's a stranger or just somebody that I mean don't go oh you're not important I'm not going to talk to you. Talk to everyone.
Gayathri (36:30.723)
Yeah.
Nancy Clanton (36:32.682)
because the most unusual person or group of people will give you some of the best advice and you need to be open to listen to it.
Gayathri (36:43.662)
Yeah, it's something that I've experienced with you. The first Enlighten Americas that I came to, you grabbed me by my hand. It was like the first lighting conference in the US. I just moved in and then you grab me and you introduce me to everybody. And it was just such a great way to feel welcomed in the industry. So thank you. Thank you so much for that. I tell everybody about that story. But it also just kind of.
Nancy Clanton (37:08.421)
Oh.
Gayathri (37:12.57)
goes to the way that you champion young women who are trying to kind of come up in the field, but to your ethos about networking and being open to talking to as many people as possible.
Nancy Clanton (37:25.666)
Yes, and I agree. And Gayathri, what you did with well building, oh wow, you opened up the visual part because of your understanding and training and master's degree in lighting. It was wonderful working with someone who understood our language. And you got it. It was fabulous. Thank you.
Gayathri (37:52.282)
Thank you and thank you for being an advisor all that while. It was great to be able to call you and check with you. So thank you for that. And I'm glad that we became friends through that experience and now we're here. Nancy, if you could look into the future, where do you think urgent action is needed?
Nancy Clanton (38:05.246)
Absolutely.
Nancy Clanton (38:15.718)
Urgent action.
Number one is that everyone is taken care of and treated equally. And also urgent action in global warming. If every person on this earth took it seriously, we could do it. People go, oh, we're never gonna reverse it.
I think we can. I think we can reverse it. I'm not doing it for me. I'm not doing it for my generation. It's our, my generation that really mess things up. And I'd like to apologize for them. It is, it is my grandchildren. I'm doing it for them in their future.
Gayathri (39:06.138)
Gosh, that was... yeah.
Nancy Clanton (39:16.302)
And that's where I think urgent action is. Everything we do, we need to look at equality, no more discrimination, and absolutely look at our actions and reverse global warming.
Gayathri (39:36.502)
Those are powerful words. Thank you so much, Nancy. Where can folks find you if they wanted to reach out?
Nancy Clanton (39:47.022)
I am now CEO of Visibility Innovations. So that would be www.visibilityinnovations.com, the website. And my new role is being a thought leader, trying to go and help communities, clients going, what if, what if we did this? Let's...
Dig deep into what your hopes and desires are, and then bring teams together. Being around this long, my network is expansive, and I want to be able to offer that network to challenging projects.
Gayathri (40:34.454)
Well, folks, this is Nancy Clanton. And Nancy, thank you so much for coming on. This was such a great conversation.
Nancy Clanton (40:41.718)
Thank you, Guide 3. You're amazing. I'll do any conversation with you.
Gayathri (40:48.533)
where this is Nancy Clanton folks, an icon of the lighting industry.