The Fight against Forced Labor: A Conversation with Human Rights Advocate Tu Rinsche

In today's globally connected environment, the importance of weaving social impact, human rights, and ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) principles into corporate strategy is a necessity, not an option. 

Tu Rinsche, a renowned leader in effecting social change, breaks down the transformative impact that businesses can have. Her extensive experience highlights the essential role of ethical supply chain practices, not just as an ethical commitment but also as a key business strategy. Companies dedicated to these values are better equipped to navigate the intricate global market, manage risks effectively, and cultivate lasting trust and sustainability with their stakeholders, setting a standard for responsible business in our interconnected world.

In this episode of Changing Tomorrow, Gayathri engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Tu Rinsche, a celebrated human rights advocate. They explore the multifaceted challenge of forced labor, emphasizing not just awareness but a decisive call to action.

Guest Spotlight: Tu Rinsche

Tu Rinsche is an award-winning sustainability and social impact leader with two decades of global experience across iconic organizations and brands. A visionary strategist and innovator, she excels in corporate strategy, social impact, public policy, and forging strategic partnerships. Currently, she is the Founder and Principal at All Rights Advisors, a boutique management consulting firm that advances environmental and social sustainability. 

With a multifaceted background spanning consumer products, luxury, technology, hospitality, entertainment, and public sectors, Tu possesses diverse and nuanced insights and expertise. Notably, she's a prominent advocate for human rights, recognized for her pioneering work in combating forced labor and human trafficking. Her impactful initiatives and collaborations within the U.S. government, human rights non-profits, and business, such as Marriott International, The Ritz-Carlton, The Walt Disney Company, and HP Inc., have improved human rights due diligence efforts, increased awareness on human trafficking, shaped responsible sourcing practices, and steered groundbreaking worker-centric innovations.  

Tu holds degrees from The George Washington University and Columbia University. Recognized with the Nomi Network CSR Award, she has held other leadership and Board roles, including at Verite, a global nonprofit championing labor rights, and Summer Search, a national mentorship program for underserved youth. Outside of work, she is an endurance athlete, inspiring others through her love for running and the pursuit of joy and wellbeing.

The True Face of Forced Labor

Tu Rinsche demystifies the concept of forced labor, referring to the International Labor Organization's specific definition. According to the ILO Forced Labour Convention, 1930 (No. 29) forced or compulsory labour is: "all work or service which is exacted from any person under the threat of a penalty and for which the person has not offered himself or herself voluntarily.”

She paints a worrying picture, it affects over 50 million people across various industries, including technology, agriculture, apparel, and hospitality.

Recognizing the Unseen: The Power of Indicators and Education

A vital part of the discussion centers around identifying indicators of forced labor. Tu underscores the importance of education and training in sectors such as hospitality, highlighting the necessity for proactive measures and empowering employees as front-line defenders against human rights violations.

Consumer Influence: Certifications and Informed Decision Making

The conversation shifts to consumer power, where Tu discusses the importance of asking the right questions and the impact of certifications like Fair Trade and Rainforest Alliance. However, she cautions against solely relying on these labels, advocating for informed decision-making and deeper consumer engagement in ethical practices.

Imperfect Actions: Making a Start

Tu's philosophy of 'imperfect action' being the best way forward emphasizes the importance of initiating change, however small the step. This pragmatic approach advocates for starting somewhere in championing human rights, showing that gradual change is within our reach.

Tu Rinsche’s Inspiring Journey

Tu shares her remarkable journey, from her early days in the Peace Corps to advising major global organizations. Her story highlights the profound impact an individual can have in the vast field of human rights.

Tu's pioneering work in combating forced labor and human trafficking, alongside her notable contributions in improving human rights due diligence, offers invaluable insights for businesses. These efforts align with the growing consumer demand for ethical practices and demonstrate how companies can contribute to creating a fairer, more equitable world while enhancing their brand value and operational efficiency. Engaging with and learning from leaders like Tu Rinsche is essential for any organization committed to genuinely driving social impact and embodying the ethos of a responsible company in today's dynamic business environment.

Business Strategy and Human Rights: An Essential Integration

Tu discusses the crucial integration of human rights into business strategy. She highlights the need for transparency and strategic long-term planning, showcasing how ethical practices are not just a moral imperative but also a strategic necessity for businesses.

Self-Care: The Cornerstone of Human Rights Work

A rarely discussed but crucial aspect of human rights work, self-care, is brought to light by Tu. She emphasizes the importance of well-being for individuals dedicated to this challenging field, advocating for mindfulness and balance.

A Journey Towards a World Free of Forced Labor

The effort to stop forced labor is filled with challenges and important lessons, but it's driven by our shared goal of a world without forced labor. Tu Rinsche shares valuable advice that can help us make a real difference. She shows us that when we work together, we can achieve justice and make positive changes. Her advice is especially useful for those in the building industry, guiding us on how to ensure our projects are built on respect for human rights. Tu Rinsche helps us see how, by working as a team and following her practical tips, we can build a world where treating people fairly is at the heart of every project.

Resources Mentioned

• International Labor Organization

• Global Slavery Index from Walk Free Foundation

• Polaris Project (National Human Trafficking Hotline)

• Working Capital Fund

• Verite

• Supply Chain Traceability Matrix

• Forced Labor, US Department of Labor

• Design for Freedom from Grace Farms Foundation

• Principles for Dignity in the Built Environment 

• Laudes Foundation

Tu recommends the book Regeneration by Paul Hawken for people looking to get into impact related work.

Transcript

Gayathri: [00:00:00] What is your perspective on imperfect actions? And is that where you recommend people, you know, stay curious, start looking and just staying informed?

Tu: Yeah, I think those are the right first steps, right? There's a viral quote has gone around in social media. I don't know. I forget who it's from or who originated it, but it's something along the lines of don't be upset by the results for the work that you didn't do.

Right? So if you're not putting in the work, you're not going to get the results you want. So don't be upset by those bad results.

Welcome to Changing Tomorrow with your host, Gayathri Unnikrishnan. In each episode, Gayathri talks to the people reshaping entire industries and societies. Changing Tomorrow is the destination for the changemakers of today. Here, we explore the mechanics of creating lasting impact, turning ideas into tools that shape a brighter [00:01:00] future.

So turn up the volume, grab a seat, and join Gaia3 for engaging conversations with those who are shaping the future right now. Welcome to Changing Tomorrow. Because the future we want is built today.

Gayathri: Hey there, change makers. Welcome back to Changing Tomorrow, your go to podcast for all things social impact and sustainability. I'm your host Gayathri Unnikrishnan and we're just a few days away from Human Rights Day on December 10th. Today's guest is award winning human rights advocate Tu Rinsha. Tu and I are diving into a crucial and timely discussion on how each of us If you included within our unique circles of influence can support the fight against forced labor.

[00:02:00] Two's work has had tremendous impact. She's been a driving force in amplifying human trafficking awareness, reshaping responsible sourcing practices, and leading the charge in worker focused innovation. She's held influential roles across industries, right from the U. S. government. To corporate giants like Marriott International, Ritz Carlton, the Walt Disney Company, and HP.

She's currently focused on helping companies around the world make their supply chains more transparent and responsible. This episode is filled with nuggets of information, and I hope you have your notebook ready. So without further ado, this is Turinsha. Tu, I'm so excited to have you

Tu: here. Thank you.

It's a delight to be here and joining your podcast.

Gayathri: Definitely. You're one of the most inspiring people I have met and I can't wait to dive in to our topic at hand. But before we do that, I really want to know if you could have a superpower, what would it

Tu: be? Oh, [00:03:00] that's such a good question. You know, I thought long and hard about this, and I was like, can I pick something super fancy and something outrageous?

But I'm gonna probably go simple on this. I think my superpower, if I had a choice, would be magic. I have little kids, and they just love Harry Potter, which is why I grew up reading, and so I know they would just love it if they knew their mom. New all the spells and incantations and just new magic, right?

How amazing would

Gayathri: that be? Oh my gosh, yes. Alhomora and then cleaning the room. That's the one that I would love.

Tu: Cleaning the room would be really great.

Gayathri: Whatever Mrs. Weasley had. We're here to talk about What is a really important and timely topic that touches every single one of us, and it's specifically around labor practices and forced labor, and I know that there are a lot of definitions and ways that you can define [00:04:00] forced labor.

Sometimes it's based on cultural. experiences, but how would you describe what forced labor

Tu: is? Sure, that's a really good question. So there is a very specific definition for forced labor under the International Labor Organization, so I would encourage any listener who's curious about this topic to go to the ILO to learn more.

There is a dedicated website on this issue, but essentially forced labor is Any work that is exacted from a person against his or her will for the purposes of labor and or sexual exploitation. So, forced labor can manifest in different ways depending on which sector you're in. So, whether it is product manufacturing or services, it is prevalent.

And according to the International Labor Organization, their latest estimates, they're estimating that at any given time, there's Over 50 million people who are in some form of forced labor. This is a staggering amount of people. The [00:05:00] problem is massive, and we're probably on a lower estimate of how many people are impacted by this issue.

And certainly. Not only communities, but companies, right? And I would say in the work that I do, I've seen a cross section of what this looks like having worked in entertainment and hospitality, covering apparel, food and ag, as well as the technology sectors. I've just seen lots of different variations of saliency of forced labor impacting these businesses and.

What they can do to address the, the issue. So it just really depends, but it is a pervasive problem. It's not something that happens in far flung places, right? It's not something that happens in some foreign country. It really is happening everywhere. It's happening outside our front door, it's happening in our hometowns, but it's, of course, it is happening in all these other places where, [00:06:00] as a globalized society, all of our products are coming from.

Gayathri: I have so many follow up questions, but I'm going to start with this one. You said it's happening outside our front door, and We interact with so many different people, so many different services on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Do you have any examples of what we can either look out for or what we can do to make informed decisions?

Tu: Yeah, this is a really great question. This is the start of wanting to make change. Right, is you have to be curious and you have to ask the right questions. And I think for me, when I was working in hospitality, for example, one of the proudest moments was being involved in spearheading a human rights training program that educated hotel employees on what to look out for and what to do should they come across instances of modern slavery and forced labor.

And you think that this is something so simple, right? But it's not. You think everyone would just know kind of what to do automatically. But they [00:07:00] don't. And so one of the things. That we educated hotel employees on what to look out for was kind of behavioral, right? When people come into the hotel, if you come across individuals who just seem out of place or maybe they seem a little afraid or maybe they're, With a party that doesn't look right, or maybe something is a little suspicious, or maybe they're part of a party where somebody's holding on to their ID, you know, identification or passports, or they're not allowed to speak or talk or engage with others.

So there are lots of indicators. I wouldn't say any one of these things is forced labor, right? So it's more about identifying the indicators, putting the pieces together, and then if there is suspicion, then knowing what to do about that. I. E. let your manager know or call the right contact information.

And in the United States, there's an organization called Polaris that runs the [00:08:00] National Human Trafficking Hotline. So this is a really important number for those who are in the U. S. as a resource on where to report it, but also lots of information on what else you can do with regards to this issue. So it's really about knowing these little tiny indicators.

And then being empowered and being provided with resources, but also ways and channels for you to communicate this information in order to take action.

Gayathri: Those indicators that you mentioned, a lot of it also includes kind of gauging how people are responding to other people in their parties, for example, or people around them.

And you mentioned this polaris that people can call, and I suspect that Versions of this exist across the world is there a trigger that is needed or can anybody call that number?

Tu: Yeah, these are generally public Resources they tend to be public [00:09:00] telephone numbers or it could be you can send a text So it's all public information.

But yes, I believe that in many countries They do have either a phone number or an email or some way to text message If you need help or you come across the situation that requires attention

Gayathri: Two, you've worked in, you've got an amazing background, and I'm still inspired and amazed by all the things that you've done, and I should stop saying the word amazing.

You've worked at Marriott, you've worked at Walt Disney, and at HB, and I think from my perspective, those are drastically different experiences. You've also worked in the government, very different, I think, subsets or demographics that you're looking at and serving. What are the commonalities, or are there any commonalities?

When you're specifically looking for forced labor signs of forced labor or things like that in each of these industries, so to say, yeah,

Tu: no, that's, that's a really good question as well. I would say that forced labor is forced labor everywhere, right? [00:10:00] Across every sector is the same. It's just a matter of how it impacts the people as part of that, but also really.

How salient it is for that particular company and how they can address it in their particular way or sphere of influence. So that's the real key differences. How are companies addressing these issues, but forced labor manifests itself the same way, right? It's, it's exactly the way that it's defined. It is people trapped in these situations.

They are afraid they have no resources of limited resources, and it's a really about livelihood. Right. So I would say that one of the other commonalities is the traceability of forced labor in supply chains, which is a topic that 10 years ago, and even 3 to 5 years ago, I would often hear people say this is impossible to do.

You can't trace forced labor back to the raw material level. It's really, really hard and companies can't be expected to do that. It's also [00:11:00] hard to address similar issues like child labor or other exploitative. Practices in the supply chain because companies don't have visibility beyond their first tier suppliers.

I frequently heard how impossible it was to conduct effective supply chain traceability, but every company right now is faced with the same kind of dilemma is how do you identify these types of risks within your supply chain what you need to do to address or mediate it and then of course transparency.

Right and the transparency part of it is becoming more regulated where there are increasing laws that require companies to describe and share how they're actually doing all of this. So when we talk about supply chain, what we're really talking about is upstream and downstream. So you'll hear these words pretty often and what upstream mean.

Is really looking at raw materials and manufacturing versus downstream looking across the value chain, such as like product design, marketing [00:12:00] and to end life cycle. So these are areas where I would think that a company has much more control over and they can add a lot of value at the forefront. But of course, there's just a lot of challenges with regards to upstream supply chain due diligence and traceability.

It is hard, but I would say it's not impossible. I have seen lots of progress, lots of advancements across all the sectors I've been in. So we've come a really long way. So I'm, I'm really encouraged by the direction that we're heading.

Gayathri: When you talk about reporting and transparency and almost the similarities across industries, my mind goes to certifications because that's the world that I come from, trying to translate these intangibles into something that organizations can look for.

And I come from the world of certifications for employee well being and employee rights, so to say. Are there any certifications that are great or that you would recommend? [00:13:00] Oh, that's

Tu: a difficult question, and it's very tricky to answer this because I don't want to endorse any particular one. I would say that I have seen increasingly many certification systems integrate.

Social factors like human rights as part of what they're measuring against right and include as part of their standards I would say that there's probably much further progress around environmental standards Which I think are ease a little easier to measure and evaluate than social factors like human rights There are plenty of certification systems out there, and again, you know, I'm not endorsing any one of these, but to name a few, you've got the Rainforest Alliance, you've got Fair Trade, you've got the Marine Stewardship Council, I mean, there's lots of them, but it's more of a question to these organizations is to what degree human rights Matter, right?

[00:14:00] What's the weight of human rights question? Like, what, what is the weight of human rights questions and, and standards within their evaluation process? So I would probably ask more questions than say, any one of these particular certification systems are better than others. It's really about their own due diligence and how they enforce their standards, but also how they engage with their clients or members around these issues should issues come up.

Gayathri: That's a really good point. The other aspect of it is, from my experience. Many certifications or many frameworks are self reported. There isn't necessarily a verification. So asking these questions or exploring it as part of kind of your due diligence, I think would be a good idea. But thanks for providing the starting points.

I've definitely seen some of them on like products in the grocery store, for example. So just looking it up, I think, which never occurred to me, is [00:15:00] definitely a really great recommendation.

Tu: Yeah, and you know, they're not all equal, right? And I think as a consumer, obviously, you feel better if maybe you purchase an item or a product that has some type of certification, because there's some rigor in terms of looking at the issues that are important for that system.

But at the end of the day, is any certification, can they guarantee 100 percent forced labor free human rights protections? I don't know. But I think that it's probably better than nothing. However, I have also seen media stories more recently, some certification systems just failing on human rights. So, what does that mean, right?

Does that mean that that particular certification system is not, no longer valid? Should I no longer purchase products with that particular certification? I don't know. So these are, these are tough questions, but I think that there are glaring gaps within the certification systems space. But also [00:16:00] opportunities for improvement.

I

Gayathri: wanted to continue this thread and talk about our experiences as consumers and I'm looking around my table and I am scared to go into a rabbit hole for even a second. Single one of these products, including the post it notes that I have all around my monitor. What can we do as consumers to kind of start exploring kind of the background or where the products that we use are coming from or where we spend our money?

I've started looking at impact reports of companies. What do you do to, like, before you buy something or before you?

Tu: Oh, that's such a tough question, Gayathri. I think that every human rights practitioner or expert faces the same dilemma, right? While we know a lot about these issues, while we probably know a lot more, we have more access to resources and tools and kind of know where to go, it is hard.

To just to be very diligent on our own purchasing, but I think that as a consumer, the first [00:17:00] thing is one be curious about human rights. With even with my kids, I tell them to look at labels of where products are being made. And so they're also aware. So now they, you know, when they go shopping, they look, Oh, this is made here.

This is made there. Is this okay? So it's about asking that question, right? Where's the stuff being made? And then maybe to go further is how is it being made? And I know there's a couple of different tools out there that different apps that help consumers identify. I would say the likelihood of a product being made with forced labor, modern slavery, or how ethical that company is.

So there's a ton of them. Again, I don't want to endorse any, any one particular one, but there are some. So one example that's been around for a long time. And some people may have lots of different opinions on these, these apps and tools, but you know, slavery footprint has been around for a long time. And, you know, that's more of like the likelihood of a product of [00:18:00] your, your slavery footprint, for example, based on your consumption.

Wow. Okay.

Gayathri: Like a carbon footprint. Yeah,

Tu: but it's a slavery footprint. There's also others that look at Particular products within a particular industry like makeup, right? So there's there's lots of different types of apps right now, and that's kind of what I'm really excited about, actually, is that I'm so encouraged by the ingenuity and innovations sparked by technologists and funders who are investing in new solutions that benefit both the company as well as workers and consumers.

By providing more education and empowering consumers with more information, right? And it's really up to them to use their purchasing power to take action. One of these groups is called the working capital fund, which has been laying the groundwork for like impact investing for some years now. And. If you go on their website and you'll see a portfolio of their investments, and it's just so remarkable of how far we've come where you've probably like, [00:19:00] there are companies on there.

They've invested in where you don't, you don't even know their names. You've never heard of them, but they're doing remarkable things using technology. So I'm really excited about that. And then there's also. The share well of activists and advocates who tirelessly fight for human rights and challenge the status quo through campaigns and education and just making a scene really right for a lot of companies it's annoying but we need all of these players to create a balance and then there.

Organizations who find allyship with both companies as well as others and a good example of this is Verite. It's an organization that continues to carry on this good fight working alongside companies. You know, again, some people may have opinions on that, whether or not that's the right thing. But, you know, as a former board member of Verite and someone who has funded them in the past, I'm a little biased, but I know that they're doing great work and they've been doing this work for a really long time.

So they have a lot of [00:20:00] insight. And so one of the things that Verite recently released is a new initiative called the Supply Chain Traceability Matrix, which could be a great starting point for companies, for example, that are interested in learning more about how to do traceability. And it's referencing and using a lot of publicly available resources.

It's like the U. S. Department of Labor, forced labor, or list of goods made with force and child labor. So there's a lot of resources out there. It's really about staying curious and doing some research and of course staying informed and hopefully by being informed you're making the right decision for yourself.

One

Gayathri: thing that has come up over and over in my work is the importance of starting and going forward with action, however imperfect it may be. And I recently read your article about imperfect action, which I think is such an important thing for us to discuss because starting and making the wrong step is terrifying, [00:21:00] but starting is important.

So there is definitely a tension there. So What is your perspective on imperfect actions? And is that where you recommend people, you know, stay curious, start looking and just staying informed? Yeah,

Tu: I think those are the right first steps, right? There's a viral quote that's gone around in social media. I don't know.

I forget who it's from or who originated it, but it's something along the lines of don't be upset by the results. For the work that you didn't do, right? So if you're not putting in the work, you're not going to get the results you want. So don't be upset by those bad results. Human rights takes a lot of work.

And like you said, Gayathri, you have to take action. So for, for me, I've been working on human rights issues for the past 17 years. There is no blueprint for this. And at many times it was really frustrating, super daunting, you kind of just want to give up, right? I think [00:22:00] everyone has felt this way. But for anyone who works in this field, who's, who are, you know, interested in human rights issues, who are interested in doing social impact, knowing your why is really important.

And you don't have to be a human rights expert or a climate activist to make this change. The first step, like you said, it's to be curious. Start where you are, take action, even though it's imperfect. because we're going to learn through trial and error. There is no perfect solution to address these issues and in particular forced labor.

I mean, that's why we're in this conundrum that we're still in. And then of course being persistent and leading with your values. So it sounds like a really simple equation, but it's not. But I would say that the first step is, is take action. It's better to do something on this than nothing at all. And there are, consequences of doing nothing.

And that's related to regulatory action.

Gayathri: What is a commonly held belief that you disagree with talking [00:23:00] about the status quo and kind of the starting points?

Tu: Yeah, I would say my, you know, my earlier comment about traceability, right, about it being impossible. It's not impossible. But I think around forced labor, we often think of it as being a hidden problem.

Yeah, maybe 10 years ago when we didn't know so much about this topic. And all of its manifestations, we didn't know, but now that's, there are no excuses. We know it's happening. We know how pervasive it is. We know how it impacts every part of our society, all sectors of business. It is not a hidden problem.

You just have to ask the right questions. So I think that we will get there eventually. I view myself as a pragmatic optimist. I think that we have the solutions. We just need to take action.

Gayathri: What we're talking about a lot is behavioral change and taking small steps as we get there as a society. It seems really [00:24:00] scary, I'm going to use the word scary, terrifying, impossible to get there.

Do you think that it is possible for us as a capitalistic society? To, I don't know, make conscious decisions. I'm feeling very optimistic with the strides we have made with climate change and the overall, I think, awakening that we're seeing around us. That gives me hope for future kind of social impact and environmental impact actions.

But is that something that you see happening as we talk about forced labor and human rights? Because if something's happening in a different country across the world, but you get a new t shirt out of it. Does it really matter? So I think my question is, what's giving you hope?

Tu: You know, a lot gives me hope, actually.

I think that if we can send people to the moon, we can absolutely eliminate modern slavery and forced labor in our lifetime. So I'm very excited about that. [00:25:00] People being curious about this topic, it's no longer a stigma to talk about human rights that more and more companies are establishing policies and programs that are investing in human rights due diligence, that governments are making these human rights due diligence requirements across the globe.

So I am very, very hopeful that all of these things will work together and advance. The current situation, right? And you're right, social compliance at the end of the day is about behavioral change. We're dealing with people, how to, how to affect. Change. How can people affect change for people, right? So it's not just asking the right questions, but we have to go beyond just asking the right questions.

This is not a checklist exercise. We have to be able to figure out how to address and eliminate forced labor. We have to educate people on what it looks like and what they can do and provide resources. We also have to [00:26:00] have the right investments in the solutions. So that they can be scaled. So I'm very, very hopeful that we will be able to hopefully reach, if not 2030 goals, 2050 goals.

I mean, certainly in my lifetime, I would like to see much more advancement around this particular topic.

Gayathri: That's hopeful, you're talking about one generation, which is very short in the large scheme of things, so that is truly hopeful. Can we talk a little bit about you and your background now? Sure! Okay!

So I would love to know how you got into the field and if you could kind of describe your career trajectory and kind of the highlights and maybe the lowlights along the journey.

Tu: Yeah. So I started out in humanitarian assistance with the United States Peace Corps. So I was a volunteer posted in the Islamic Republic of Mauritania.

And this was, you know, I had no idea where this country was. Like [00:27:00] I was a bright eyed college graduate wanting to go and change the world and really put into practice the theories that I've learned in school. And so I moved to Mauritania and lived there for three years. And this was the first time where I.

Witness firsthand slavery. So one of my projects, I worked at a maternity health clinic in the outskirts of Nouakchott, which was the capital of Mauritania. And I partnered with a health worker who became a really close friend during that time and helped me navigate life in Mauritania. And I learned from her that she was.

It's what is called a Harutin, and this is a former slave in Mauritania where people know that if you're a Harutin, that means that this is your heritage. This is your background. You can never go beyond that, right? And so for her, she accepted her destiny in life. She couldn't make that change. So it didn't matter if [00:28:00] she wanted to pursue further education or become someone else.

She was always known as a former slave. So that really opened my eyes. To this massive problem, right? That this is not some historical issue or something you read about in the books. It still exists. And that allowed me to further explore, how can I make a difference in this world? And one question I asked myself is.

I think all of us can ask ourselves is how can we make human life better right so for me knowing my why going to this work and doing what I do because it is hard it is thankless it is not easy work and sometimes it's really depressing because of the topics that we work on you have to really have a Solid understanding and why you're doing it.

And so after that, I joined the U S government and I worked at the U S department of state as part of the bureau of democracy, human rights and labor. I did not [00:29:00] come in with a background in human rights. I did not have a law degree in human rights. So this was really different and new for me to then be a specialist around worker rights issues.

And tripartite engagement. And so for five years, I was considered the lead for DRL on forced labor, child labor, and supply chains, and had the opportunity to work across government in partnership with foreign governments, but also multilateral agencies and the United Nations and global brands navigating really complex.

Human rights issues from health and safety of manufacturing and factories to ethical recruitment issues to trade union rights. I mean, it was very, very. Wide the breadth of issues that I was exposed to. And one of the things for me was that change is absolutely possible. Sometimes it's really slow, right?[00:30:00]

And sometimes depending on where you sit, it could be really fast. I had always been so impressed by the speed of what companies can do. And so I had the opportunity to pivot into the corporate sector and work for some of the leading fortune 100 companies in the world on these topics and helping them navigate these complex issues, but also offer solutions and ways that they could address.

Human rights issues, in particular forced labor and child labor and responsible sourcing based on their resources and their sphere of influence. So I have been really privileged to have this diversity of perspective, which I feel has made me a better human rights practitioner and has allowed me to very quickly grasp.

These very complex problems, but really focus on the solutions and offer ways and insights and very deep, nuanced expertise on how a company can not only navigate, but also [00:31:00] develop due diligence programs and remediate. You know, I've also been on the other side of the table of companies where I was an activist working for an investigative human rights organization, so I've worn many hats.

And that was one thing that was important for me was being able to see all perspectives so that we can all understand how to get to the solutions quicker. And one thing I've learned is collaboration and partnership is critical. No one actor. Or organization can do this alone, not even companies doing it by themselves.

It really is about partnership and collaboration. And that's where I've seen the speed and the scale of addressing forced labor issues and just more broadly, human rights issues work very well. So for me, it's been a journey. I'm still on this journey and I'm excited every day to be able to work on these issues and to help other organizations and companies navigate these very complex problems.

Gayathri: The most amazing thing about your journey [00:32:00] to me is that you've explored so many levers for change and driving different scales of change. And I love, I love what you said about the importance of understanding different perspectives as we kind of sit across a table, but also understanding that one person can't do it alone.

You mentioned grassroots efforts in organizations earlier and just the sheer power of corporates. Nowadays to drive change. So thanks for sharing your journey with me. This is, it's truly amazing.

Tu: Yeah, absolutely. I'm really encouraged by companies that are taking action and sharing their best practices with their industry peers.

You know, as much as companies need to remain competitive, like they can create magic when they collaborate. And I've been able to see this firsthand working in house across these multiple industries. So I know it's possible, but it's about. Going beyond your comfort zone, right? These are not comfortable issues and the [00:33:00] work that's required to get it done will not be easy.

So you have to be open to those things, but you also have to be open to listening to those who don't agree with you. And that's really, really important because we're not going to make progress. If we're just sitting around with like minded people who are not questioning us, who are not pushing us beyond our comfort zone.

Something

Gayathri: that is been on my mind lately is that more and more so in companies, we're talking largely in terms of quarters. And when we talk about change or impact, we're talking. Decades, sometimes generations, and it all boils down to two words, which kind of give me hives. One is business case and the other is ROI.

Have you come across such situations or what are your, I know it's a very, very high level topic that we can probably dive into for hours, but do you have one or two or three tips for people who want to kind of start exploring this at [00:34:00] work?

Tu: Yeah, I think that The business case is always important, right?

Because that establishes a baseline for why a company needs to do what it needs to do and ROI will always be important because you have to understand at the end of the day, what I'm investing in, hopefully that's going to lead to the desired outcome that I want, but that's what it means. Right? But I agree with you.

I think that that's why human rights is really hard to evaluate because it's not just numbers. It's very qualitative. And some of this work requires decades, if not an entire generation, a lifetime. It does take a lot of patience. And when we're dealing with business quarters, you don't have so much time.

And especially if you're a public company, it becomes even harder. So I think that moving away or setting aside a short term ism to more long term thinking would be helpful for human rights. Advancement, but at the end of the day, a company is a company and it needs to [00:35:00] have a good understanding of why it, why it needs to invest in human rights.

And that's probably an area that probably is more lacking is the level of investment needed to address human rights issues for a company does not equal. The amount that they're setting aside, right? A lot more needs to be invested. There needs to be more money to be allocated to human rights, due diligence, human rights initiatives and engagements, and also community partnerships.

So I could speak all day about monitoring evaluation as someone who has done this in my many roles, but M& E is is a very particular area. How do you measure impact? What does that mean? What does success look like? What are your KPIs? How does that translate to broader, broader goals and your theory of change?

So these are bigger questions, but as long as you're making incremental progress quarter over quarter, that's going to lead. To bigger change year over year, right? So, as long as you're going in the direction and you [00:36:00] have a strategy in place, strategic annual planning that aligns to that strategy, you will make progress if you have the investment in your programs.

So, if there's no investment in a program, likely, you're not going to make a whole lot of progress. And if you expect that you're going to make some kind of. Demonstrable human rights advancement with very little funding or little resources or even few personnel again, don't be upset by the results. You didn't put the work into the work that that you didn't do the work for.

So.

Gayathri: Another thing that I, I wanted to discuss with you is self care, and it's, I think one thing that is, I'm getting more comfortable talking about, because it's hard to do work, impact work, and it's, as you said, it's thankless, it can take a toll. It feels sometimes like you're not making any progress and having been to burnout land multiple times and back.

I wanted to ask you, and I've heard some amazing tips from other guests [00:37:00] on the podcast. Do you have any self care tips or anything that you've found that works to help you manage this very tough and challenging work that you

Tu: do? Oh, I love, this is one of my favorite topics is self care. I think that as human rights practitioners, I've consider folks who are working in social impact of human rights as part of the care economy.

And I have often seen many of my colleagues not taking care of themselves. And so, you know, if you're focusing and trying to help others, and you're not taking care of themselves, you're not going to show up. The best that you can be to do that work. So it's so, so critically important that we focus on self care, whether in the workplace or at home.

And I think if we are talking about worker rights, self care for workers in the supply chain is also important as well. But some of my little things that I do [00:38:00] is definitely meditation. So breathing exercises. This is a skill set to be learned, breathing, you know, we have to do it to stay alive. There are really great techniques for how to actually regulate the nervous system through breathing.

And it's really simple. You know, sometimes it's like taking two puffs in and a deep breath out. It's as simple as that, but it changes everything. The other is gratitude. This work is really hard and. For myself and many of my colleagues, we've seen lots of terrible things and we've had to deal with really dark, you know, go to very dark places, right?

That is not normal. So just practicing daily gratitude and being just thankful for. I mean, I certainly wake up every day being thankful for the life that I have and being able to do the work that I can do just to help other people and being where I am. And part of that is also being present. So we are such, I mean, I'll speak for myself, [00:39:00] but I am a huge multitasker because I'm sure like many people, we don't have enough hours in the day to do everything we want.

So making sure that. I'm staying present in whatever it is that I'm doing so that I can give the best that I can is really important. And then like everyone, just going outside, getting some daylight, you know, that amazing vitamin D that you need. I heard a recent stat that in the U. S., like 80 percent of the U.

S. population is like vitamin D deficient, which is kind of crazy, right? So yeah, just making sure that we're healthy so that we can help people be healthy. And that's really what human rights is all about. It's about how can we help others and make their lives

Gayathri: better. Gratitude, going outside and taking deep breaths and staying focused, all of which are very achievable and can be done today and every day.

So thank you for sharing that. So to many of the folks [00:40:00] listening in are from the building industry. They're either working in construction, design, architecture. Are there any resources that you can share that they can look up or read up on?

Tu: Yeah, that's a really great question. While we've been mostly speaking about forced labor and modern slavery in the apparel and manufacturing sectors, modern slavery affects the construction sector as equally.

Right. And it manifests obviously a little bit different in each sector, but for the most part, forced labor is a risk in the material sourcing also in workforce recruitment and people who are building your buildings, especially if you're dealing with migrant or foreign workers. So there are a lot of other considerations.

Around human rights for the construction sector as well, such as land rights, building safety, and environmental health and safety, just to name, you know, a few. So I would say that there are quite a diverse list of human rights issues that impact the construction sector, and some [00:41:00] resources that I know of that could be useful, again, this is to spark interest, and for those who would be interested in learning more, particularly for the sector, is, I'll name three.

So the Institute of Human Rights and Business published in 2019 the Principles for Dignity in the Built Environment. So it could be a great resource, uh, and report to review. A private foundation called Grace Farms Foundation has an initiative called Design for Freedom that looks at forced labor and supply chains.

And then a European private foundation called Laudis Foundation has an initiative called Built Environment, which tackles not only inequality and well being, but also zero carbon buildings. So there's quite a few initiatives out there that focus on not only the social side of things, including human rights, but also are melding climate change as part of these conversations.

Gayathri: I'm going to add all of these to the show notes. I'm familiar with Grace Farm's work, but I'm definitely going to look up the [00:42:00] other two resources that you shared. Two, we spoke a lot about your work and the wide range of things that you have done and that you focus on. Can I ask you, what do you do on a day to day basis?

What does your day to day look like? Well, I try to

Tu: have fun every

Gayathri: day. Important. But

Tu: yeah, I've been just really lucky that I've been able to do purpose purposeful work and be able to work with social impact and human rights due diligence across many sectors and you know again with some of the largest fortune 100 companies, which gives me a really unique mix skill set and very deep expertise where I can more or less help other companies and organizations build out their human rights due diligence.

But also established, uh, what they need for the desired outcomes that they want. So as a consultant, my job is to make it easier for them to take their first steps and to help connect the dots. So all companies, you know, if you're listening to this are all affected by human rights issues in some [00:43:00] way or another.

There's just no doubt about that. And I would encourage companies to stay curious. And learn more about human rights issues and the risks that impact them and where they can make a change. So on a day to day basis, some of the things that I do is really helping companies identify key actions. And at the most basic level, for example, if you're a company and you don't have a human rights policy, develop one.

This is one of the easiest things that you can do. Two, know your human rights risks. And assess both your country based and product based supply chain risks. So I help companies do this third. And I think we talked a little bit about this is around training and awareness should not be underestimated.

Don't assume people know what human rights are and that they know what to do. And I have seen in many of my roles, what human rights trainings have led to. And by being informed and educated, I've seen employees saving lives. I mean, at the end of the day, that is the impact that you want. [00:44:00] And then fourth and really important is just to be transparent.

So I hope companies who are doing the good work, share that work, not only to meet compliance, but also to inspire others in their industry to do the same. Right. If we're doing something and we're not sharing, no, one's going to know what we're doing and you're not going to make scalable progress. So these are some things that.

I hope companies do on a day to day basis, and I love this work, and I think that any company can do it, they just have to take the first step. And so, if they're curious and interested in taking that first step, they can certainly reach out to me. So, my company is called All Rights Advisors, and so they can find me online at www.

allrights advisors. com, or they can reach out to me directly at 2 at allrights advisors.

Gayathri: com. Thanks too. And just one thing that I wanted to kind of reiterate or impress upon is that you used to work at [00:45:00] the global level in your previous roles, correct? So you were working across different geographies and cultures when you're talking about training, when you're talking about transparency, you're talking about Not just in the United States, you're talking across the gamut or across the range of services provided by international companies.

Tu: That's right. So all my roles have been global. I've always worked at a global level, but also with deep exercise around these issues in the US. Because, like I said, human rights are human rights issues everywhere. They are the same. It just depends on where is it more material? How salient it is for a particular company?

And what is that particular government doing around these issues? And so there's a lot of resources out there where companies can start to learn. And again, these are much more U. S. centric resources, so like the U. S. Department of State Human Rights reports, the U. S. Department of State Human Trafficking report, there's the U.

S. Department of Labor report on child labor, and the list of goods [00:46:00] made with forced labor. So these are all global resources, but of course, There's also the International Labor Organization where folks can learn more about these issues at a global setting and lots of other resources out

Gayathri: there. Thank you.

Thanks to any company that works with you will definitely, I think, be able to make progress or make a starting point. So I definitely encourage folks listening in to reach out to Tu. She's a star. And I thank you Tu for coming on Changing Tomorrow and for all the work that you do to change tomorrow. Oh,

Tu: thank you, Gather.

It's a pleasure being here to be invited.

Gayathri: And folks, that's a wrap. If you're still here, cheers to you. If you want to know more about what we discussed today, check out the blog post and the resources in the show notes, as well as our website, which is www. makeitliveable. co. I am also very excited to announce that we will be releasing a [00:47:00] newsletter, which is really going to capture the trends that you're seeing when we are talking about creating purpose driven organizations and purpose driven spaces.

So I highly encourage you to check that out and would love it if you subscribe. All of it can be found on the website, www. makeitliveable. co. Hope you have a lovely day and see you in two weeks.