Demystifying Biophilic Design: A Candid Conversation with Catie Ryan and Bill Browning
In the newest installment of "Changing Tomorrow," Liveable founder Gayathri hosts a compelling conversation with biophilic design experts Bill Browning and Catie Ryan. This episode is a delightful deep dive into the intricacies and myths surrounding biophilic design, peppered with humor and personal anecdotes.
Guest Spotlight
Bill Browning
Superpower of Choice: Photographic memory
Bill Browning is a prominent figure in the real estate industry, known for his expertise in green building and biophilic design. As a passionate advocate for sustainable design, Bill has influenced business, government, and civil society sectors. His consulting work spans diverse clients including Google, Marriott Westin, and the University of Virginia. Bill co-founded Terrapin Bright Green and is a recognized leader in the field, earning accolades like the ASID National Design for Humanity Award.
Catie Ryan
Superpower of Choice: Photographic memory & teleportation
Catie Ryan serves as the Director of Projects at Terrapin, with a focus on integrating human health, nature, neuroscience, and architecture. With 18 years of experience in design and environmental sustainability, Catie is a strategist known for enhancing design processes and project outcomes. Her expertise in biophilic design and commitment to occupant satisfaction are evident in her role in cross-disciplinary teams and her contributions to industry-leading publications on biophilic design.
Demystifying Biophilic Design
During the conversation , Bill and Catie debunk popular myths. They emphasize that biophilia isn't just about incorporating plants but involves a deeper understanding of nature's influence on human psychology and physical well-being. They discuss how biophilic design is more than aesthetics; it's about creating spaces that connect with our innate need to be in touch with nature.
The guests tackle misconceptions head-on and challenge the idea that biophilic design is a passing trend, tracing its roots back to ancient times. Here are the myths they cover:
Myth-Busting Highlights
Beyond Plants: Biophilic design is more than just plants; it includes natural light, materials, and other nature-based elements.
Cost-Effectiveness: Contrary to belief, biophilic elements can be economically viable.
Historic Roots: Far from a trend, biophilic design has a long-standing significance in architecture.
Strategic Integration: The effectiveness of biophilic design lies in thoughtful, meaningful incorporation of natural elements and not necessarily by maximizing the number of plants.
Air Purification Limits: Plants' role in indoor air quality is complex and limited.
Wide Applicability: Biophilic design is versatile, suitable for various buildings and budgets.
Measurable Impact: The benefits of biophilic design, including improved well-being and productivity, are quantifiable.
Distinct from Sustainability: While they overlap, biophilic design and sustainability are distinct concepts.
Rethinking Design: A Call to Action
The episode wraps up with a call to action for us to rethink our approach to design, considering biophilic elements not as an afterthought but as a fundamental component of sustainable, human-centric architecture.
This episode is more that a mere discussion- We're invited to envision a world where architecture harmonizes with nature, fostering our innate connection to the environment. It's not just about design; it's about cultivating spaces that enhance well-being and champion sustainability. This isn't just another podcast episode—it's a gateway to a revolution in how we live, work, and interact with our surroundings.
Listen in to the episode on "Changing Tomorrow" to be part of this transformative narrative.
Resources Mentioned
"The Economics of Biophilia" for an in-depth understanding of biophilic design principles and their economic benefits.
Library of case studies and publications, demonstrating the application and impact of biophilic design elements in different settings.
Podcast Transcript
Bill Browning: [00:00:00] The third one, in some ways, is kind of the most fun, and that is spatial experiences, the three dimensional characteristic of the space. And we've identified a series of patterns or experiences in that category. The first would be prospect, which is an unimpeded view through space. Helps lower stress, helps with wayfinding, identification of space.
The second would be refuge, where my back is protected and I might have canopy overhead. So, think that high back booth in the restaurant that everybody, you know, wants that space first, right?
Catie Ryan: Welcome to Changing Tomorrow with your host, Gayathri Unnikrishnan. In each episode, Gayathri talks to the people reshaping entire industries and societies. Changing Tomorrow is the destination for the changemakers of today. Here we explore the mechanics [00:01:00] of creating lasting impact. Turning ideas into tools that shape a brighter future.
So turn up the volume, grab a seat and join Gaia3 for engaging conversations with those who are shaping the future right now. Welcome to Changing Tomorrow, because the future we want is built today.
Gayathri: All right, buckle up, friends. You're tuned into Changing Tomorrow. And today's episode, we're busting some myths. We're diving into the world of. And we have two visionaries who are defining what biophilic design is. First, we've got Katie Ryan. She's a technical wizard. She's got 18 years of making our buildings better for us.
And she integrates design, human health, nature, and neuroscience. And then we have [00:02:00] Bill Browning, who's. Name is practically synonymous with green building and biophilic design. He is an industry titan and he's a founding partner at Terrapin Bright Green. Okay. Without further ado, let the myth busting begin.
Hi, Bill and Katie. I'm so excited to have you both on here.
Catie Ryan: Morning. It's great to be here. Morning.
Gayathri: Evening. Evening. Katie, where are you calling in from?
Catie Ryan: Malaysia.
Gayathri: Okay. And what time is it? 7 a. m. Okay. And Bill? Washington, D. C. Okay. And you're probably 615. Correct. Yes. 315 right here. Well, I'm so excited to have you both.
It's like having an entire encyclopedia of biophilia in front of me, and I'm very excited about this episode. It's going to be a cool format, and I'm excited to get into myth busting mode in just a minute. But before then, I want to ask you both, if you could have a superpower, [00:03:00] what would it
Catie Ryan: be? I think for me I have two, if that's allowed.
Totally fine, yes. One would be something along the lines of, like, photographic reflexes. Or, you know, that kind of photographic memory, because there's so many things I want to do, but I never have enough time to learn it all and do it all, and so I think that that pertains to work and private, like, personal life and everything.
Then my husband and I live on two different continents, so teleportation would be nice.
Gayathri: Teleportation is the winning one right now. It's got the most votes, so yes, if anybody's listening, the superpower handing out people. Bill, how about you? So,
Bill Browning: Katie took one of mine, which was photographic memory. And partially, years ago, when I first started working for Amory Lovins at Rocky Mountain Institute, Amory'd come in and look on the computer screen over your shoulder and go, Oh, that's really [00:04:00] interesting.
What's your reference for that? And you'd show him, and he'd go, That's good. I have a better one. And he'd type in the reference, the name, the authors, the publication, the date, the page numbers. So it exists. Uh, yeah.
Gayathri: You don't just read about it in like these cool detective books. That's good to
Catie Ryan: know. Wow. I'd want to be able to do also just like the skills, you know, when you watch something once you know how to do it. Oh my
Gayathri: gosh, yes. I'm learning ceramics, and I'm probably the worst ceramicist out there, the pottery wheel, and I don't get long, I don't give up, it's trying to get rid of me, but if that was a skill, I would jump right on it, because I'm so sick of cracking my ceramics and not making it into a bowl.
You
Catie Ryan: can do it. I'm
Gayathri: trying, it's a whole thing, [00:05:00] and the thing is that when you're doing it, the instructor will come to you and say things like, It's you. It's not the clay. You need to center yourself, not the clay. So it really doesn't help the process. We're going off on a tangent. We can definitely catch up on my ceramic misadventures.
But today's podcast, we're going to really talk about biophilia and like. Jump into some controversial topics and some controversial things that I think I've seen a lot in the media and out there, and I'm excited to really hear your perspective about each one of them. So we have an entire list of myths that we are going to hopefully get through in this episode.
We'll try our best. But I wanted to start with the first one, which is the most popular one. The myth is. Biophilia is only about plants.
Catie Ryan: Where do we start? There's a lot we
Bill Browning: can say on that one. It can be about plants, and a lot
Catie Ryan: more. [00:06:00] Yeah, it's just not only about plants. And I think plants are an easy default for people to relate to.
You know, it is very relatable. But the way we talk about biophilic design, and how we write about biophilic design, is always based on science. So when you look at the science There are so many opportunities beyond plants and even within plants, you know, it's not just about having a plant. It's, you know, where is it located?
Why is it located there? Like, how does species selection come into the discussion? So Bill, jump in any time. You know,
Bill Browning: there were early studies looking at, Oh, so we'll do a whole bunch of the same ficus tree in an office and, you know, and designers love to do, Oh, we'll all do the mother in law's tongue sansevieria cause that's dramatic, right?
You know, right. A whole row of that. That doesn't occur much in nature. You know, when you get a monoculture like that, it's typically not a real healthy ecosystem. And the [00:07:00] early studies indicated that I could actually do fewer plants, but group a different group of plants together, and it looks like a little habitat.
And so we sort of project ourselves into that and get a far stronger response. It's one of the reasons why we're way more. fascinated by a little terrarium than if those same plants were individual pots sitting out on a desk. So that's
Catie Ryan: the plants. Yeah, that's the plants.
Gayathri: Yes. Yeah. And you said it was much more than plants.
Uh, there are other elements.
Bill Browning: What we found is that you really, we could sort of classify The science into three broad categories. The first we call nature in the space. And those are direct experiences of nature that we can have in space. And that can be seeing nature like plants or a landscape or animals or seeing a view of nature, a photograph of nature, real nature out the window, [00:08:00] hearing.
Smell, the other ways of experiencing nature beyond visual. Daylight, breezes, presence of water, watching natural systems evolve and change over the seasons or things grow. Those are all different experiences of nature that can You know, fall into that first category, nature in the space. The second category would be representations of nature, what we call natural analogs, and that might be using biomorphic forms, or using natural materials, or bringing in complexity and order in the form of fractals, all of which are things that occur in nature quite a bit, and that we process easier, lowers our stress, and it's another way of connecting to
Catie Ryan: nature.
Before you get into the third one, Bill, I think people often will default to a material choice, like wood, which is a great choice, but really, you know, when you talk about [00:09:00] analogs, they could be patterns in a design. They, it can be upholstery, fabric, you know, and it doesn't have to be representations of plants either.
It can be the textures and much more abstract, but still has that. That indirect connection to
Bill Browning: nature. Right. We respond really positively to what are called statistical fractals, which are nested mathematical repeating patterns that have variation in them. So things like flames dancing in a fireplace, or the pattern on a snowflake, or fern leaf, or absolutely dappled sunlight under trees.
Those are all what are called statistical fractals. And when we see them in human designed objects, the brain processes them much quicker and easier. And we see an almost immediate drop in stress, which we can measure through galvanic skin testing, through EEG, through brain wave testing. And so the neuroscientists call that impact fractal fluency.
That the [00:10:00] brain is fluent with those sorts of patterns and they occur so much in nature that it would make sense that we should be using them in our own designs. Okay,
Gayathri: and then you said there was a third one. The third
Bill Browning: one, in some ways, is kind of the most fun, and that is spatial experiences, the three dimensional characteristic of the space.
And we've identified a series of patterns or experiences in that category. The first would be prospect, which is an unimpeded view through space. Helps lower stress, helps with wayfinding, identification of space. The second would be refuge, where my back is protected and I might have canopy overhead. So, think that high back booth in the restaurant that everybody, you know, wants that space first, right?
Gayathri: Like the nooky spot, yeah.
Bill Browning: Yeah, the window seat, you know, that's, and if it has a view, now you have prospect and refuge together. So there's a couple of those [00:11:00] patterns. Another one would be that curving path in the forest where you just, you gotta go see where it's on the corner, right? You just feel compelled to do that.
Or one of my favorites, risk peril. Right? So, you're in the Guggenheim Museum in New York, and it has that amazing spiral ramp, and you get to the top, and you're looking over the edge into the center, and Frank Lloyd Wright makes that railing just a little bit too low. You're not going to fall, but it's pretty exhilarating looking over it.
And it's really funny watching people because they inevitably, when they look over it, they always put two hands on the rail and lean over with their hands on the rail to look over. So that elicits a strong dopamine or pleasure response in the brain. right? Risk peril. And then our newest pattern has to do with kind of having to reset the brain and [00:12:00] reprocess and refigure out what's going on.
And so that would be when you suddenly walk out of the pinion juniper low closed forest in Arizona and you step out and in front of you is the rim of the Grand Canyon. Right? And you see people's mouth drop open and their eyes get wide and there's this intense experience of awe. And that's a unique brain experience.
You sort of have to reset and refocus after that. But it leads to really interesting outcomes like more pro social behavior. And that's one of the other lessons we've learned is that The different experiences of nature elicit different responses. Some are great at reducing stress. Others help improve cognitive performance.
Others enhance mood or pro social behavior. And so it's one of the ways we kind of use to filter [00:13:00] which pattern we might use.
Catie Ryan: Yeah, so all those patterns that Bill was just talking about, those are all like spatial conditions. And you don't have to have plants at all. Oh, wow. Okay. You're talking about the architectural form, or urban planning strategy.
It's a much bigger context than just whether there's vegetation or not. And so vegetation can be added to maybe enhance it, but you can see there's some fantastic examples out there of buildings that don't have any plants, but are highly, you know, elicit those biophilic experiences.
Gayathri: Wow, okay. Do you have examples of these buildings?
Maybe I can link to them in the show notes so people can, you know, just poke around and have a look. Would the Guggenheim be a good example, Bill?
Bill Browning: That's a good one. Another one, one of my favorites is the chapel at MIT. done by Sarnan, which is this little brick drum sitting in a pool of water, and there's a space between the [00:14:00] outer wall and the inner wall, and so, and there's glass between those two, and so reflections from the ripples on the water.
outside appear on the walls inside the drum and the space. There are no windows in the space, but there's a skylight over the altar and behind the altar are these brass rods, uh, Harry Pertoyer's sculpture of rods with these Uh, pieces of metal, of brass and gold leaf and stuff, and the light bounces off of those, plus you get the light around the perimeter.
It is just an absolutely extraordinary space. There's no view to nature. There are no plants. It's just a brick space, brick and stone basically, and glass and metal.
Catie Ryan: So it's really about the spatial conditions, the lighting, and there's movement, right? The sculpture moves? Sculpture doesn't
Bill Browning: [00:15:00] move, but the light patterns.
Lighting
Catie Ryan: moves. Okay. So it appears. Light patterns move.
Gayathri: Yeah. Okay. Wow. Okay. I will definitely look back. I think natural myth that comes after this that I, I would love for you to bust is biophilic design is costly. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Catie Ryan: Okay, we, that is true when you introduce it too late into the process, I'd say that is, or if you want to do something grand over your budget, but it doesn't have to be that way.
In fact, a lot of biophilic design, it's just part of the design process, it's good design, it's the choices that you were going to make before, but using biophilia as a lens or a filter to make those decisions. And that's particularly true with spatial patterns that we were just talking about. If you are introducing those early in the design process, it's just, it's the form that you're building will take.
And same thing is true with like the material selection and your wall finishes, window treatments, things like that, things that you were going to do [00:16:00] anyway, furniture selection, and then just saying, okay, well, what options do we have that are biophilic? Some of them might be more expensive, but a lot of them will be the same price.
Like, well, your carpet tiles, like you might look at a single manufacturer that has, you know, three options. Two of them are biophilic. Why don't we just. Focus, like, choose from those two rather than providing the option that is not biophilic. In that sense, it doesn't have to cost more at all. But certain materials that, certain stones or, you know, other factors might cost more.
But that's really part of the design process.
Gayathri: It's interesting because what I'm hearing you say is that there are opportunities at every phase to
Catie Ryan: integrate. I think there's three main opportunities, or actually four. One is at the site selection or building selection phase, like when you're actually searching for that site or that building.
You know, what are the existing free opportunities? You know, what's [00:17:00] the daylighting condition on the site or in that building? You know, what views does it already have? So you're looking for those opportunities. Another is in that early concept or early design phase, concept and schematic. So that's when your big opportunities, the spatial conditions, um, and then bringing nature inside.
Like what are those concepts and experiences you're looking to create? And then, you know, later in the design phase and like construction. Documents phase, it's the, the smaller opportunities, particularly with interior design, they can still be substantial, you know, like if you're doing carpet throughout the building, that's a big decision.
And then there's post occupancy, the smaller opportunities to bring in nature without necessarily having a full on retrofit. I would say those are the four ones that I don't know, Bill, if you have other. No, I think that's
Bill Browning: great. And in fact, you know, one of the things that we sometimes see in post occupancy, particularly in office spaces, [00:18:00] is that they have great prospect, you know, the view all through over the place, but you really need a place to just sort of get away and recharge just briefly that refuge experience.
And you can bring that in with as simple as high back chairs. Just add a few. You know, little chairs or booths or something in that can just be dropped into the space as furniture retrofits. So there are ways of getting at even the spatial experiences as a quick and easy retrofit.
Catie Ryan: And you see a lot of that phone booths, those modular phone booths that have been popular nooks and phone booths that have been provided by many manufacturers in the last five or seven years.
That's largely in response to that need. For having a refuge space, an opportunity to step away from your desk or step away from the crowd of people within your office and take that phone call or just focus on a particular task.
Gayathri: That's also an [00:19:00] inclusive design choice because with the research and the information coming out about designing for people who are on the spectrum or who may be neurodivergent, these spaces really provide a spot for them to go and work and just get away if they need to because different people, um, that require different levels of stimulation, right?
So it's also very much an inclusive choice, which is super cool. I did not
Catie Ryan: realize that. Well, I think you're getting at a point that Bill and I've been talking about quite a bit. Many biophilic design strategies or patterns are in fact, they're providing those options. They are inviting inclusive design.
Into the design process. So I think there's definitely an opportunity to think about it that way or use biophilia as a method for achieving your inclusive design goals. Okay, the
Gayathri: next one, the next myth is biophilic design is just a passing trend.
Bill Browning: Yeah, it's a trend. It's a trend that's been going [00:20:00] since 5, 000 BC, right?
You know, the very first
Catie Ryan: Right,
Bill Browning: the very first recorded structure, Gobateki, is the, you know, these massive columns that are covered with carvings of animals, right? So maybe more conscious application of Making these connections to nature is a newer trend that based on the definition of biofilia and the, you know, more and more emergent science from a variety of fields that tell us, you know, what we've sort of intuitively known for millennia that, Oh, we have this connection to nature is important to us.
Gayathri: I think we
Catie Ryan: can go to the next one. To that point. So people who are looking more at more, you know, in a more recent timeline, There are trends in say product manufacturing. That are recently like they're embracing nature, um, or nature patterns and that may be a trend [00:21:00] and it will probably change, but the concept of the idea of bringing in nature, I don't, it's not the trend itself.
It's, you know,
Gayathri: how we address it or how we integrate it into current design trends. For lack of a better word. Okay. The next myth is the more elements of biophilic design and patterns,
Catie Ryan: the better. And this is one Bill and I frequently encounter, but sometimes I feel like our job is to bust that myth quite often.
Bill Browning: We've had examples where folks have brought us something and said, look, I used all the patterns in this space. Oh, okay.
Catie Ryan: That's, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not the goal.
Gayathri: Yeah. And you don't have to do that.
Bill Browning: No. In fact, one of the things we've really learned are some of the most incredible spaces only use one or two of the patterns, but do them in incredibly great.
way. [00:22:00] So one of my favorite examples is, there's a, it's called a pocket park in Manhattan, Paley Park. It was designed in the 1960s. It's on 53rd street and it's a little tiny park. It's just one lot. So it's 30 feet wide and 90 feet deep and it's two sidewalls of, of Ivy decomposed granite on the ground, some honey locusts.
So you get really great dappled light and that. statistical pattern on the, on the ground, and then the back wall is a big water wall. And that sound of water is just what brings you to the space and the presence of that water. And you hear the water down the street before you even have any sense the park is there, and it pulls you to it.
And we and interns and other folks working with us over several years, we just, we went by the park every time we could. in all [00:23:00] different times of day, all different times of year. Occasionally the park was closed, the gates were closed, but almost all the time it was always open. And the only time we didn't see people in the park was when the water feature was turned off.
Gayathri: Oh wow, okay.
Catie Ryan: So even when there's construction site going on, like they were doing construction and they're scaffolding, in the park there was scaffolding. But people still found spaces to sit and be in that space. So one of the perspectives we like to bring to the conversation is that if you're trying to figure out if you have enough patterns or if you have the right patterns, if you take that pattern out, or that design element out, does it still have the same effect on the space?
So, like Bill was saying, you turn off that water, the waterfall, I mean, if you eliminate the waterfall from the experience of the space, is it still biophilic? Is it still as powerful an [00:24:00] experience? And if you can say, yes, that design element might not be necessary, so that might be a cost management strategy.
But if it doesn't affect cost, and it's something you like to have, then sure, include it. It's not that one or two patterns that are making a significant difference on the experience of the space. So if you can say The experience is extremely different when you take it out, or it's much less powerful when you take it out.
That's your key pattern. That's what you want to focus on.
Gayathri: So it's more about what has the most impact versus the number of things.
Catie Ryan: So it might be one pattern. It might be a combination of two or three patterns, but we have rarely seen a project that had 10 or 14 patterns that needed to have all of them in order to achieve the experience.
That's not to say that a project that has all those [00:25:00] patterns is not as effective as one that has fewer. It's just the point is to. Be intentional, right? Like, why are you incorporating those patterns? Um, and if it's just accidental and because of your design approach, that's one thing. But if you're putting it in to check off a box, You can't be sure that it's going to achieve your, your
Bill Browning: goal.
You know, another way to approach it as well, we tell a lot of designers is, we now know that the different, different patterns support different outcomes, physiologically or psychologically. And so, identify, What experiences you want to create for the people who are going to be using that space and what's important for them?
Is it cognitive performance? Is it stress reduction? You know, what are the, what are the experiences that are most important for the people using that space? And that helps you filter which of the patterns are, might be most effective for use in that space.
Catie Ryan: And I think that's a [00:26:00] really good point because that kind of answers or reflects back on some of the other myths that you've mentioned, is that for each space, you're going to have a different solution, you have a different user group, or a different mission, or a different ecosystem.
Like, so even if you're using the same patterns, To achieve a similar outcome, they still, the actual strategy you use will be different. So, I mean, that's one of the challenges to finding precedence, you know, every application is going to be different. You know, you've got everything from the science, the ecosystem, the user group, the design aesthetic from the, yeah, the location, the owner, the architect, like everyone is taking a slightly different.
You know, there's, it has a different influence on it. So it's never an apples to apples comparison. Yeah.
Gayathri: What's coming to mind when you were talking about it is, you know, a living room with a patterned wallpaper, patterned upholstery, patterned carpets, patterned cushion [00:27:00] covers, tablecloths. And when I think about it, I'm getting stressed, but the reality is there are like these amazing living rooms in like little cottages, you know, the English cottage style living rooms that do it so well.
But each element adds to that. But if I try to do it, or if we just, you know, go with our instinct, I think just the wallpaper could be just enough. So it's almost about what the design intent is, what the goal is, and kind of, am I getting at that?
Catie Ryan: You're getting at something else as well as, I think to your point is that if it's not done well, you get what's called visual toxicity.
It's a real thing that can make, actually make people dizzy or sick. when there's too many patterns that just don't work together or too many colors and contrasts. And so, yes, we want to avoid that. And, you know, sometimes it's about aesthetic and other times it's just, you know, about making the right, the right decision for the people, decisions of what really, you know, maybe you do have [00:28:00] two very different patterns, but they don't go next to each other.
They're in different rooms or different spaces. Yeah.
Gayathri: And start with the occupant and what the goal of the space that you're designing is. Um, that's really, I think, an important learning from this. It's, I think, for all aspects of design, but specifically with biophilia. The next myth that I have is one that I even see in Home Depot, which is plants can purify air.
Catie Ryan: Well, they can. They can.
Bill Browning: Yeah. They do. And Bill Woverton at NASA did the original work. It's just that. You need a lot of plants to really, if you've got really seriously bad air, you need a huge amount of plants to do that cleaning. You know, particularly to break down the volatile organic compounds and all of that.
So, yeah, they can do that, but in most spaces you're just not going to get enough plants to make that actually work. So, [00:29:00] I want plants for other things. I want them for that connection to nature, for the visual pleasure, the scent, or whatever. But if I'm just trying to clean the air, what I should be paying into attention to, or what's the off gassing from the materials in the space, what's the quality of the air that I'm bringing into the space, uh, and the filtering.
Yeah, that's, uh, Relying just on plants to do that? Difficult.
Gayathri: I think I remember the study when you're talking about lots of plants, I think they had covered all the walls with plants, if I remember correctly, and it was like almost in a vacuum. So the amount of, I think, air circulation was much lower than, than, it was a very unique situation.
I can link the research in the show notes, but I think just when you say a lot of plants, it's a tremendous, it's a lot, lot,
Catie Ryan: lot of plants. Yeah. It's not just about like. In your apartment putting, you know, 10 potted plants, just because you have 10 potted plants does not mean you're suddenly going to have [00:30:00] a higher quality of air than the apartment next door.
Yeah.
Gayathri: Okay. The next myth is biophilic design is only for high end projects.
Bill Browning: It's for everybody. It's for everybody. I mean, we've been involved in projects and biophilic design in an inner city school. Okay. A mathematics classroom in inner city school and what interventions can we use to support the learning outcomes for the students and literally the interventions were the choice of carpet, some wallpaper, removing distracting stuff from the walls, changing the window blinds to add window blinds at a statistical fractal pattern and planting a few more trees in the garden outside.
And what we saw, uh, With those minimal low cost interventions was dramatic improvement in academic performance. And we had four months of biometric [00:31:00] testing and saw that the stress recovery characteristics for the students were better in that classroom than in a controlled classroom.
Catie Ryan: And it gets back to one of your earlier bits, it doesn't have to cost more.
It's more about when you introduce the idea. So, you're gonna buy carpet anyway. When do you make that decision? So I think it, yes, you can have. Extremely lush, fabulous, high end apartments and hotels that are biophilic. But it's just, can have perfectly biophilic spaces with a small, smaller budget. It's just a matter of making, you know, the concerted effort to, to bring it to the conversation from the beginning.
And like
Gayathri: you said, using that as a filter, almost, for decisions in the space. Okay. The next one on my list is biophilic design is not quantifiable, or rather the impact of biophilic design is not quantifiable in numbers, per [00:32:00] se.
Catie Ryan: We wrote a book on that. Let's talk
Gayathri: about
Catie Ryan: the book. Yeah, so,
Gayathri: um. We'll just link to the book for sure.
But
Catie Ryan: I think part of the challenge is that it's still something that is Relatively new to the conversation, even though biophilic design or biophilia has existed forever, we, the idea that we have to quantify the outcome or the value of something that parts new to the conversation. And often in the design process, we're looking at first costs.
And when it comes to biophilia. We need to be looking at the post occupancy impact and what that cost has not just on the business, but the population affected and then the broader like community impact. So it's a more complex calculation. And then, of course, the post, when you start to look at post occupancy, you have to be asking the right questions.
And oftentimes you're [00:33:00] limited to like noninvasive. methods of evaluation, and that's where some of the research comes in to help us understand how it is quantifiable. Bill and I and other folks at Terrapin back in 2012 wrote a book on the economics of biophilia to help. Relay some of these, the research in a way that made sense for designers, owners, developers to, to understand where the opportunity really lay with them in retail, in, uh, hospitals, in community, in offices and so on.
So I think it was a really helpful tool, the book and getting that message across, like, how does it translate? What's the financial translation of that science to the building design process? And over the years, it has become, you know, there's so much new research out there and new project examples and the conversation is still very live, alive.
So just in this September, [00:34:00] we issued a second edition to the Economics of Biophilia. And, uh, Bill, you might have something to add to that, I don't know, it's, we're really excited to share the, the research and the case, this one, now this version has case studies in it as well.
Bill Browning: Yeah, I mean, outcomes are things like faster healing rates in hospitals, better academic performance in school systems, higher room rates in, for hotel rooms.
Better productivity in factories, right? Those are all sort of measurable economic outcomes. You know, they're also the science based outcomes of lower blood pressure, lower cortisol levels, lower heart rate, better healing. We also have those other kinds of outcomes as well. Yeah.
Catie Ryan: And so if the individual, you know, who might be concerned about their.
blood pressure or other health factor that can be influenced by like a stronger connection to nature, whether it's in the building or how many times they go to the park or something like that. [00:35:00] For them, it's quantifiable in it. Like they're making fewer trips to the doctor or they, you know, they know they feel better.
Like it's just a feeling you have. But when you're talking about Larger scale quantifications, such as, uh, school system and you know, what does it mean if more kids are performing well and they are more kids are graduating because they enjoy going to school or they have a better school experience and then they're enrolling in college and they're staying within their community and reinvesting like, so.
That's a much more complex calculation and it's not necessarily attributable solely to biophilic design. So yeah, it's not that it's not quantifiable, it's just harder to quantify. And so I think what's important is recognizing what the potential opportunity is. And what those potential quantifiable benefits are, and that's what the economics of biophilia is all about.
It's not about saying, if you do this, this other thing will happen and you will save this much [00:36:00] money. It's more about if we do this, or if everyone does this, you know, this is the potential benefit to the individual or the, the company or the community. It's really an endless. Endless opportunity there.
And
Gayathri: if I remember correctly, the economics of biophilia is completely free, right? There is no barrier to that information. It's on your
Catie Ryan: website. Yeah, the barrier would be if you don't have access to the internet. Which is one of the reasons why a downloadable PDF is, even though it's such a basic tool, it's like something that can be shared, printed if needed, so that people who, who don't have regular access to the internet can get it.
Bill Browning: And you'll find other papers there. The 14 Patterns of Biophilic Design is on there in multiple languages. You'll find papers on response to wood, on nature sound. on fractals, and so detailed papers as well, and all [00:37:00] of which you can download for free off the website.
Gayathri: And you don't even have to share your email address, it's all for free, correct?
Catie Ryan: Correct. There's an option to share it, but you don't have to, yeah. Yeah, it's
Gayathri: truly amazing in today's world, you rarely see Such amazing information available.
Catie Ryan: Well, I think to the point before it just, it should be accessible to everyone. Everyone should be able to access biophilic design. And so one of the ways we do that is to make the information available.
I will
Gayathri: definitely link all of that and I will be downloading all of that as well. So thank you. Thank you for sharing. I will share my email address. Yeah, it's what I do when I'm,
Catie Ryan: I guess we need it on tape, like a video recording of the reading. We get somebody to do an audio recording of the books while you're doing your clay making, you can listen to.
I don't think, it's probably not the most like, it's not quite. It's going to be soothing.
Gayathri: Soothing. Yeah, I [00:38:00] would think so. I'm like stressing out about the clay. So this will be soothing for sure. Okay. Um, we have two more myths. So let's go to the next one. The next one is biophilic design and sustainability are the same.
They're one of the
Catie Ryan: same. I haven't heard that one before, but I could see how people like to lump them together and just stick biophilia in the sustainability. I find that for each of the projects we're on, at least from my perspective, it's perceived or treated in a slightly different way each time. I think that largely depends on the culture of the design team and the dynamics of the design team.
For one project, you know, the, the sustainability was actually under the healthy buildings group. So healthy buildings included sustainability, it included resilience measures in carbon, and it included health and well being of the occupants. So that [00:39:00] umbrella healthy buildings wasn't anything it was just a way of including all that and the conversations were fairly Integrated and as a result we had a very we had salute design solutions that supported all of those Goals, it supported sustainability.
It supported local economy. It supported the health and well being But I don't know that that's necessarily a typical outcome, right? In many projects it's like this is the sustainability consultant and they are going to address biophilia and lead and other things And it's all it's lumped together that way.
Um, but then I I think that there are projects that aren't pursuing Sustainability in name like they aren't necessarily pursuing a rating system and biophilia Or biophilic experiences and health and well being or wellness is more their focus. So they might be addressing indoor air quality, like the healthy design choices, in which case.
Sustainability, [00:40:00] it's more, more on the health side. So, biophilia might have a bigger chunk of that conversation. So, I find that a lot of the biophilic design choices can support other sustainability goals, but not all sustainability goals. Or, or strategies are necessarily biophilic, so it can, they can be together, but they don't necessarily, um, support each other depending on the priorities of a project.
Gayathri: When you were talking about kind of sustainability and LEED and certifications and all of that, I just want to touch upon, uh, what your perspective or what you think about the checkbox approach that we see a lot, um, which is basically a list of things that you can do to make your space. biophilic. And if I hear you correctly, checking all of the boxes is not the right way.
It's about checking the right boxes. There are
Bill Browning: so many different ways to implement the different patterns. There's not really an effective way that you could do [00:41:00] a checklist. And so the other is just the lesson that we've learned is choose which patterns are most effective for the needs of your population.
That's the. biophilic design. For
Catie Ryan: teams that have quality control measures or some method of tracking whether their design is achieving their goals, the checklist mentality is important to them. And I would say that if people are inclined to do that, and it's harder to wean off of, it's not whether this pattern or that pattern is included.
Does our design achieve This outcome, uh, Bill saying like picking the needs of the users. So what are those needs? So then does this design support those needs? That's where the checklist might come in. Rather than do the plants, do we have plants? Do we have refuge? Instead of using that checklist, use the [00:42:00] outcome based
Gayathri: checklist.
Okay. Okay. What are the goals and what can we do to get there? Okay. Okay. The final myth. On the list is about landscape design and it is landscape design or rather having landscaping is inherently biophilic.
Bill Browning: I can design a landscape that induces fear, right? So, and we've actually seen that happen. So, yeah, that's a myth.
Landscapes can be highly biophilic, but they can also be biophobic. So, being intentional about, you know, what are you creating within the landscape, and the experiences you're creating in the landscape, is really the important key there. Bill, can you
Catie Ryan: give
Bill Browning: an example? We had a campus we were working on that had, uh, these beautiful linear rain gardens and along a major circulation corridor through the center of the campus.
And then there were these small [00:43:00] little pockets off the side that were Beautifully done with native species and all that, created these little rooms with seating in them, all of that. But the planting was so dense that you couldn't see in or out of the rooms and no one felt safe in them. And so they were never used.
Had they had just the upper tree canopy and then a low ground plane of plantings down below, like you see in a savannah like ecosystem and all of that, instead of these dense thickets. Then, yeah, it would have been a totally different experience, and I'm quite sure they would have been used, but because of that fear inducing thicket edge, no one would ever use them.
Gayathri: Wow, and that, when, Katie, when you said, when you asked Bill for an example, I expected something to be like a wooded area with like, you know, actual, Classic horror movie trope going on in my head, right? And then Bill, you spoke about this amazing office with these fear [00:44:00] inducing elements that very intuitively we would not use because we don't know what's on the other side.
So it's super interesting to me that there are elements
Catie Ryan: of this that we can see. Yeah, that example is outdoors, right? It's a landscape, an exterior landscape. It's a
Bill Browning: landscape. That's an outdoor landscape.
Gayathri: I mean, even then, that's, that's a really great example. What are your thoughts on lawns? What do you think about these long, rolling, green golf course like lawns?
I
Catie Ryan: think that they can be problematic for a number of reasons. First, it's not a natural occurring Feature in nature and often requires chemicals. This is one of those opportunities to think about how biophilia and sustainability overlap. And so if you are able, there is a movement tool designing. Lawns or golf courses that are more sustainable that are more [00:45:00] natural and in those cases you can Probably get there, but anything like Bill was mentioning earlier about the Sansevieria is like the monoculture approach is not a naturally occurring phenomenon, at least not in a healthy manner.
So, in general, it's not necessarily going to achieve your sustainability by affiliate goals. However, you know, there's certain lawn conditions where that you can create it. I'm not opposed to small lawns. I think what drives me crazy are the lawns that have, are fenced around and saying like, you're not allowed to actually go on it.
What is the point of creating these experiences that people can't use? I was actually in a botanic garden in Brooklyn, the botanic garden in Brooklyn, and I was sitting on a lawn, drawing, and the security guard made me leave. I wasn't allowed to sit there for my safety, and I thought, well, wait a second, okay, so either there's [00:46:00] chemicals in the lawn, or you don't, maybe there's people in the forest that I should be concerned about, it was just a very strange experience for me, I didn't really know how to process it, that's a little off track from your question, but it's like, how are we designing Okay.
These lawns or these gardens in a way that are both inviting and safe and sustainable. And so I think that combining sustainability efforts. With sustainable landscape management and design with design, you can get.
Gayathri: Well, final question, where can folks find you if they want to reach out?
Catie Ryan: I'm in Malaysia right now.
Gayathri: If they want to find you physically, come to Malaysia. But online, I guess maybe on the website, would that be okay? Yes. Is that what you
Catie Ryan: recommend? That's probably the most direct. We have [00:47:00] our general email account that we both have access to, or, you know, info at terrapin or biophilia at terrapin. That's usually the one we'll give out if there's specifically have questions or interests in biophilia, biophilia at terrapin.
Bg. com. And of course, you know, we're both on LinkedIn. So on our website, you can also sign up for our newsletter. It's not a frequent newsletter, but it will keep you updated on new publications. Then LinkedIn, we often post. Our podcast presence and other opportunities to experience biophilic design.
Gayathri: Okay.
Okay. I'll definitely link your profiles, uh, LinkedIn profiles, because I think a lot of folks will be fascinated to follow you and learn more about the amazing work that you both are
Catie Ryan: doing. The one last one that we haven't mentioned is the book that came out. During COVID was that nature inside a biophilic design guide and that's not for free, but it's a great publication through RIBA publishing [00:48:00] that digs into some case studies and looks at the historical and present approaches to biophilic design in a variety of ways.
Sectors or market segments. So it also has a toolkit with a bunch of extra information in there to help with the design process or anybody who's interested in integrating biophilic design into their own practice. And that is nature inside a biophilic design guide.
Gayathri: And I just looked it up on Amazon. It looks like a gorgeous
Catie Ryan: book.
So is it a biophilic cover? Yes, it's
Gayathri: biophilic cover and it. I don't know. It just feels very tangible. Like I want to touch it. So yeah, absolutely. If that was a goal that you were looking for. Yes. Thank you so much for coming on Katie and Bill. This was such a lovely conversation and thank you for playing along with my wild idea of
Catie Ryan: myth busting.
It was fun. It was great. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much.
Gayathri: If you're still here, cheers to you. If you want to know [00:49:00] more about what we discussed today, check out the blog post and the resources in the show notes, as well as our website, which is www. makeitliveable. co. I am also very excited to announce that we will be releasing a newsletter, which is really going to capture the trends that you're seeing when we are talking about creating purpose driven organizations and purpose driven spaces.
So I highly encourage you to check that out and would love it if you subscribe. All of it can be found on the website, www. makeitliveable. co. Hope you have a lovely day and see you in two weeks.